nobdysfool said:
You say:
"God would have preferred that Lucifer and Adam sin"
Momentous statement of a die-hard Calvinist....
Stuff like this makes me reject Calvinism with utter revulsion.
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nobdysfool said:The only thing I'm not quite sure I can reconcile with the above is the idea that God would have preferred that Lucifer and Adam both not sin
holdon said:You say:
"God would have preferred that Lucifer and Adam sin"
Momentous statement of a die-hard Calvinist....
Stuff like this makes me reject Calvinism with utter revulsion.
nobdysfool said:You'd rather hold on to an anthrpomorphic plastic bobblehead savior than to deal with the Real Lord Jesus and His Word, and concepts and doctrines that you might actually have to expend some effort and engage a few brain cells to understand, rather than the emotional, feelings driven, reactionary baloney you keep posting.
Alternative to what? To God being the author of evil? You really think there is no alternative?nobdysfool said:Oh, and holdon, we're still waiting for your answers to these questions, whuich are entirely appropos to the discussion:
What is the alternative?
Of course not.Was God caught by surprise?
Yes, absolutely.Did Adam nearly destroy what God had created by disobeying Him?
Yes. Absolutely! God did not plan evil. Never. He couldn't.Did God have to scramble to come up with a "Plan B" because of what Adam did?
God knows all things all the time. But that does not mean God wanted Adam to sin.Or, Did God know that if He created the world as He did, Adam would sin, and God created the world the way He did anyway
What other choice did He have? Once Adam sinned He brought about His grace and redemption: Plan B.knowing that He would use the sin of Adam to show forth His glory and Mercy and Righteousness of Justice by the redemption of the Bride of Christ, and the destruction of the wicked?
Tell us, holdon, since you so obviously know so much more than we do. Tell us, O enemy of Calvinism.
holdon said:Alternative to what? To God being the author of evil? You really think there is no alternative?
holdon said:Yes, absolutely.NBF said:
Did Adam nearly destroy what God had created by disobeying Him?
holdon said:NBF said:Did God have to scramble to come up with a "Plan B" because of what Adam did?
Yes. Absolutely! God did not plan evil. Never. He couldn't.
holdon said:God knows all things all the time. But that does not mean God wanted Adam to sin.
holdon said:What other choice did He have? Once Adam sinned He brought about His grace and redemption: Plan B.
holdon said:You're very good at making enemies.....
holdon said:You're so insulting! As no morality will keep you from concluding the worst about a Holy God: "that He would prefer that Lucifer and Adam sin.", it is evident that no morality will keep you from insulting others either.
nobdysfool said:Yes, I see the difference, and it is a distinction that is lost on many who try to weigh in with opinions. As I said, and I believe you agree, God ordained both Lucifer's and Adam's sins for a greater purpose, and not just to have them happen. God's Purpose was larger than just the state of Lucifer's standing, or just Adam's. In ordaining the larger purpose, things like Lucifer's and Adam's sins were ordained to serve the larger purpose. Therefore, God was not "blind-sided" he was not taken by surprise and forced to adjust His Plan and Purpose to account for an unforeseen event.
The only thing I'm not quite sure I can reconcile with the above is the idea that God would have preferred that Lucifer and Adam both not sin, because if God had the larger purpose already in mind (which I believe He did), then the so-called "d'ruthers" don't really apply.
Yes it does, and I think you're feeling the strain of trying to walk the fine line that is always brought up in these discussions. Some people just can't conceive of a God who would ordain events that they see as bad, disaters, injurious, and eternally fateful. But when one really stops and thinks clearly about it, the alternative to God ordaining all that is, is chaos to one degree or another, and either a God who is really not in control or the existence of an inimicable force or being who is apart from God, and not subject to His control. Neither of those alternatives is viable, or even possible. Nor should any one event be seen as divorced from the context of all things, and the working of the larger purpose of God.
IronFire said:Cool
IronFire said:hmmm...I do believe God had a larger purpose in mind the whole time, but I think this is where we differ.
nobdysfool said:Thank you for a reasonable and calm discussion of views. For some reason, some people get really worked up about this subject. I appreciate the rational approach, and the thoughtful responses.
Consider that in the light of a larger purpose, certain things might have to happen that of themselves would not be the preferred course of events, taken alone, and considered alone, but become necessary to accomplish the larger purpose. Obviously, we are not privy to what the full scope of that Purpose was or is, and why it had to be this way, but I am content with knowing that it is the way it is because God thought it the best way to bring about the full fruition of that larger Purpose...And we know that whatsoever He doeth, it is Right.
A Blessed Resurrection Day to you, Bro!
That's the plan that God is intrinsically and eternally good, that in Him there is no darkness at all. That He created moral beings capable of free choice.nobdysfool said:
Wel then, O wise one, tell us what that plan would be?
"because by him were created all things, the things in the heavens and the things upon the earth, the visible and the invisible, whether thrones, or lordships, or principalities, or authorities: all things have been created by him and for him."Especially, tell us how that would have taken care of Lucifer and the fallen angels. Tell us what Plan God had that Adam ruined?
Well it was said earlier this thread I believe. Why are so opposed to that term by the way? Because your religion doesn't allow you to say that? But it teaches it....And knock off the "God is the author of sin and evil" crap. That is a complete mischaracterization of the Calvinist position, and has no truth to it whatsoever. It is a lie.
Quote
Just to be clear: that is not the God of the Bible.
God.....IS.....the "author"....of everything......Do you know of another ?
Hab. 1:13 for instance.
Scripture please? Certainly you can prove to us conclusively what you so strongly assert?
Do you know what the term: "Adam sinned", or "Adam transgressed" means???Your ability to think abstractly is non-existent. You cannot provide one scripture that categorically states this.
"For if by the offence of one the many have died, much rather has the grace of God, and the free gift in grace, which is by the one man Jesus Christ, abounded unto the many."You've GOT to be kidding! Please show us scripture for this ridiculous claim!
nobdysfool said:I am not "concluding the worst about a Holy God."
holdon said:That's the plan that God is intrinsically and eternally good, that in Him there is no darkness at all. That He created moral beings capable of free choice.
"because by him were created all things, the things in the heavens and the things upon the earth, the visible and the invisible, whether thrones, or lordships, or principalities, or authorities: all things have been created by him and for him."
"even as by one man sin entered into the world, and by sin death; and thus death passed upon all men"
Well it was said earlier this thread I believe. Why are so opposed to that term by the way? Because your religion doesn't allow you to say that? But it teaches it....
And here is what Moonbeam said to my objection:
Where Moonbeam at least is so much consistent in acknowledging that God is that author of evil, whereas we cannot detect the same consistency in you. Hab. 1:13 for instance. Do you know what the term: "Adam sinned", or "Adam transgressed" means??? "For if by the offence of one the many have died, much rather has the grace of God, and the free gift in grace, which is by the one man Jesus Christ, abounded unto the many."
nobdysfool said:you're not even trying to answer what I ask, you're just throwing out anything. Your hatred is palpable. I do not hate you holdon, but it's obvious you hate me. I will leave you to your hatred.
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