Satan's Sin

holdon · Apr 12, 2006

nobdysfool said:
There is no such thing as a self-caused decision, if by that you mean a decision with no prior cause. The decisions that you make are because of the fact that you exist. The source of your existence is God, so it can be argued that the very decisions and choices you make exist because God caused you to be in existence.

If God causes us to exist, it doesn't necessarily follow that He causes our decisions. That would be an irrational conclusion.

holdon · Apr 12, 2006

IronFire said:
The crucial questions are:

Did God cause Satan (or Adam) to sin?
Did God intend for Satan (or Adam) to sin?

Indeed!

moonbeam · Apr 13, 2006

holdon said:
So, are you saying that when you sin, God makes you sin?

God permits me to sin.

If sin exists, is it because God causes it to exist?

Yes.

moonbeam · Apr 13, 2006

nobdysfool · Apr 13, 2006

holdon said:
If God causes us to exist, it doesn't necessarily follow that He causes our decisions. That would be an irrational conclusion.

Could you make those decisions if you didn't exist?

There's your irrational conclusion.

God has given men the ability to make choices, and as such, men are responsible for the choices they make. God doesn't force them to make those choices, but they could not make them if God had not brought them into existence.

nobdysfool · Apr 13, 2006

moonbeam said:
God permits me to sin.
Yes.

Just to make sure we aren't misunderstanding, moonbeam is not saying that God gives him (or anyone else) permission to sin.

What moonbeam is saying is that God doesn't prevent him from sinning. The sin is moonbeam's responsibility, not God's.

holdon · Apr 13, 2006

nobdysfool said:
Could you make those decisions if you didn't exist?

No. So what?

There's your irrational conclusion.

I think you are the one completely unrational here. If God caused us to exist, how does it follow that He therefore caused our decisions???? Please explain that one.....

God doesn't force them to make those choices,

So, now you're saying God does not cause anybody's decisions?

Go figure that rationality.... (scratching my head)

holdon · Apr 13, 2006

nobdysfool said:
Just to make sure we aren't misunderstanding, moonbeam is not saying that God gives him (or anyone else) permission to sin.

What moonbeam is saying is that God doesn't prevent him from sinning. The sin is moonbeam's responsibility, not God's.

Unless.... God causes us to sin because God causes our decisions, because God made us. ?????

nobdysfool · Apr 13, 2006

holdon said:
No. So what? I think you are the one completely unrational here.

Prove it. You're the one getting all worked up,. because you've been backed into a corner.

holdon said:
If God caused us to exist, how does it follow that He therefore caused our decisions???? Please explain that one.....

Nothing to explain, because I never said that. You accuse Calvinists of saying that but you lie doing so. Calvinists do not teach that Goad causes anyone to make any decision.

holdon said:
So, now you're saying God does not cause anybody's decisions?

Why don't you just calm down? I never said otherwise.

holdon said:
Go figure that rationality.... (scratching my head)

You should be scratching your head trying to figure out how you put yourself into a corner. I'm not the one being irrational here. You are, because you're trying to find a "gotcha" against Calvinists.

nobdysfool · Apr 13, 2006

holdon said:
Unless.... God causes us to sin because God causes our decisions, because God made us. ?????

False, and shown to be false. Give it up, you're getting nowhere with these fallacious accusations.

holdon · Apr 13, 2006

nobdysfool said:
False, and shown to be false. Give it up, you're getting nowhere with these fallacious accusations.

You said it could be argued that way:

Originally Posted by: nobdysfool

There is no such thing as a self-caused decision, if by that you mean a decision with no prior cause. The decisions that you make are because of the fact that you exist. The source of your existence is God, so it can be argued that the very decisions and choices you make exist because God caused you to be in existence.

So, it's not a false accusation. But you have a false reasoning: like I said: no rationality.

nobdysfool · Apr 13, 2006

holdon said:
You said it could be argued that way:
So, it's not a false accusation. But you have a false reasoning: like I said: no rationality.

You are desperate aren't you? Show me what part of what I stated isn't true?

You don't understand the difference between God ordaining that an event happen, and causing that event to happen.

God ordained the Fall, but He didn't cause it, Adam did.

God ordained that Christ die to save sinners, but God didn't crucify Christ, the Jews did, through their surrogates, the Romans. God charged the Jews with the crime, though..

God ordained that you do certain things today, but He does not cause you to do them.

holdon · Apr 13, 2006

nobdysfool said:
God ordained the Fall

Give me some proof of that.

By the way, it's talking bad about God you know.... REAL bad.

nobdysfool · Apr 13, 2006

holdon said:
Give me some proof of that.

By the way, it's talking bad about God you know.... REAL bad.

What is the alternative? Was God caught by surprise?

Did Adam nearly destroy what God had created by disobeying Him?

Did God have to scramble to come up with a "Plan B" because of what Adam did?

Or, Did God know that if He created the world as He did, Adam would sin, and God created the world the way He did anyway, knowing that He would use the sin of Adam to show forth His glory and Mercy and Righteousness of Justice by the redemption of the Bride of Christ, and the destruction of the wicked?

Tell us, holdon, since you so obviously know so much more than we do. Tell us, O enemy of Calvinism.

IronFire · Apr 13, 2006

nobdysfool said:
You don't understand the difference between God ordaining that an event happen, and causing that event to happen.

Your really confusing me now, because I really thought you were arguing that God causes everything...

God ordained the Fall, but He didn't cause it, Adam did.

The question is, did God cause Adam to cause it?
If you say yes, then it appears God did cause the Fall.

God ordained that you do certain things today, but He does not cause you to do them.

Your terminology is somewhat confusing...
Like before, does God cause us to cause things? Cause if He does, then it's really Him causing it, not us.

IronFire · Apr 13, 2006

Also, I don't believe my question has been answered:

Did God intend for Satan (or Adam) to sin?

hlaltimus · Apr 13, 2006

Struggle as you may with this, there will never be another suitable answer this side of eternity other than the answer of...."Unknown".

nobdysfool · Apr 14, 2006

IronFire said:
Also, I don't believe my question has been answered:

Did God intend for Satan (or Adam) to sin?

What are the options?

Did God Plan for it, knowing that it would happen?

Did God ordain that it happen, as part of a larger purpose?

Was God blind-sided by Adam (and Lucifer's) sin? Did God say to Himself, "I can't believe they did that!"?

Did God have to hastily assemble a "Plan B" to account for the unforeseen events?

What is your view?

IronFire · Apr 14, 2006

Did God Plan for it, knowing that it would happen?

Yes

Did God ordain that it happen, as part of a larger purpose?

God ordained that it would happen (He ordains everything), yes, but He ordained it would happen in accordance with Adam's choosing to sin.
Did God ordain that the Fall would happen, and only for that reason the Fall happened? No
I hope you can see the difference.

Was God blind-sided by Adam (and Lucifer's) sin? Did God say to Himself, "I can't believe they did that!"?

No, He wasn't blind-sided. (I'm not an open theist!!!)

Did God have to hastily assemble a "Plan B" to account for the unforeseen events?

No "Plan B" (I'm not a dispensationlist!!!)

What is your view?

w00t an invitation to say what I think

I would say that God did not intend for Satan or Adam to sin. "Intend" in the sense that God preffered that Adam had not sin, or in the sense that it would have been better if Adam had not sinned.

I would also say that God did intend for Satan or Adam to sin. "Intend" in the sense that He knew it would happen and ordained it to happen in accordance with Satan's/Adam's choice.

Does that make sense

nobdysfool · Apr 14, 2006

IronFire said:
YesGod ordained that it would happen (He ordains everything), yes, but He ordained it would happen in accordance with Adam's choosing to sin.
Did God ordain that the Fall would happen, and only for that reason the Fall happened? No
I hope you can see the difference.

Yes, I see the difference, and it is a distinction that is lost on many who try to weigh in with opinions. As I said, and I believe you agree, God ordained both Lucifer's and Adam's sins for a greater purpose, and not just to have them happen. God's Purpose was larger than just the state of Lucifer's standing, or just Adam's. In ordaining the larger purpose, things like Lucifer's and Adam's sins were ordained to serve the larger purpose. Therefore, God was not "blind-sided" he was not taken by surprise and forced to adjust His Plan and Purpose to account for an unforeseen event.

The only thing I'm not quite sure I can reconcile with the above is the idea that God would have preferred that Lucifer and Adam both not sin, because if God had the larger purpose already in mind (which I believe He did), then the so-called "d'ruthers" don't really apply.

IronFire said:
w00t an invitation to say what I think

I would say that God did not intend for Satan or Adam to sin. "Intend" in the sense that God preffered that Adam had not sin, or in the sense that it would have been better if Adam had not sinned.

I would also say that God did intend for Satan or Adam to sin. "Intend" in the sense that He knew it would happen and ordained it to happen in accordance with Satan's/Adam's choice.

Does that make sense

Yes it does, and I think you're feeling the strain of trying to walk the fine line that is always brought up in these discussions. Some people just can't conceive of a God who would ordain events that they see as bad, disaters, injurious, and eternally fateful. But when one really stops and thinks clearly about it, the alternative to God ordaining all that is, is chaos to one degree or another, and either a God who is really not in control or the existence of an inimicable force or being who is apart from God, and not subject to His control. Neither of those alternatives is viable, or even possible. Nor should any one event be seen as divorced from the context of all things, and the working of the larger purpose of God.

Satan's Sin

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