Salvation.

Byfaithalone1 · May 19, 2008

Does obedience to the ten commandments have any bearing on my ability to:

(1) obtain salvation; -OR-

(2) maintain salvation?

BFA

Moriah_Conquering_Wind · May 19, 2008

(1) No
(2) No

You (i.e. the human individual) have no ability to either obtain or maintain salvation in the first place. Nor have you any ability apart from the saving grace of God to walk in harmony with His ways, whether codified or not.

Scripture does indicate that having our minds in agreement with God's law as being holy, just, and good indicates something of where we stand with Him. That does not mean we can simply change that by wishing or "willing" it to be changed. But if we find ourselves out of harmony with Him and do not want to be there, we can ask HIM to do something about that. And bes assured He WILL, for He has even so promised.

Byfaithalone1 · May 20, 2008

OK. Here are 2 related questions:

(1) Will I take with me to Heaven the character that I formed here on earth?

(2) Is it left with me to cleanse the soul temple of every defilement?

(3) What do the Scriptures have to say?

BFA

mva1985 · May 20, 2008

Byfaithalone1 said:
Does obedience to the ten commandments have any bearing on my ability to:

(1) obtain salvation; -OR-

(2) maintain salvation?

BFA

P.S. When replying to this post, please address both point #1 and point #2. Thanks.

1. Eph. 2:8-10
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

2. John 14:15
15 If you love Me, keep My commandments."

Also consider Ezekiel 18
" 19 "Yet you ask, 'Why does the son not share the guilt of his father?' Since the son has done what is just and right and has been careful to keep all my decrees, he will surely live. 20 The soul who sins is the one who will die. The son will not share the guilt of the father, nor will the father share the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous man will be credited to him, and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against him. 21 "But if a wicked man turns away from all the sins he has committed and keeps all my decrees and does what is just and right, he will surely live; he will not die. 22 None of the offenses he has committed will be remembered against him. Because of the righteous things he has done, he will live. 23 Do I take any pleasure in the death of the wicked? declares the Sovereign LORD. Rather, am I not pleased when they turn from their ways and live?
24 "But if a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits sin and does the same detestable things the wicked man does, will he live? None of the righteous things he has done will be remembered. Because of the unfaithfulness he is guilty of and because of the sins he has committed, he will die."

Byfaithalone1 · May 20, 2008

2. John 14:15
15 “If you love Me, keep My commandments."

Are there any whose righteousness is better than filthy rags? In fact, is there anyone righteous--even one? If a man sins does he free himself from his sin, or is he in fact a slave to sin? In fact, isn't the whole world a prisoner of sin? If obedience is required in order to maintain salvation, do you conclude that none will be saved?

Justification, salvation and sanctification are the works of God, not man:

“He saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of His mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit.” Titus 3:5.

When does the corruptible put on incorruption?

BFA

Adventtruth · May 20, 2008

mva1985 said:
1. Eph. 2:8-10
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

2. John 14:15
15 “If you love Me, keep My commandments."

Also consider Ezekiel 18
" 19 "Yet you ask, 'Why does the son not share the guilt of his father?' Since the son has done what is just and right and has been careful to keep all my decrees, he will surely live. 20 The soul who sins is the one who will die. The son will not share the guilt of the father, nor will the father share the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous man will be credited to him, and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against him. 21 "But if a wicked man turns away from all the sins he has committed and keeps all my decrees and does what is just and right, he will surely live; he will not die. 22 None of the offenses he has committed will be remembered against him. Because of the righteous things he has done, he will live. 23 Do I take any pleasure in the death of the wicked? declares the Sovereign LORD. Rather, am I not pleased when they turn from their ways and live?
24 "But if a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits sin and does the same detestable things the wicked man does, will he live? None of the righteous things he has done will be remembered. Because of the unfaithfulness he is guilty of and because of the sins he has committed, he will die."

It appears that you have lifted 3 different passages out of context to make your argument for law keeping for salvation.

The first passage clearly support that fact that we are saved by grace of God through faith plus nothing! Being in Christ we are re-created a new unto a holy and righteous life. (works)

The Second passage you truly are taking out of context. Lets look at what Christ and His listners understood that you are missing.

(Joh 14:15)"If you love me, you will keep my commandments.....(Joh 14:21)Whoever has my commandments and keeps them, he it is who loves me. And he who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I will love him and manifest myself to him."....(Joh 14:24)Whoever does not love me does not keep my words. And the word that you hear is not mine but the Father's who sent me.....(Joh 15:4)Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit by itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in me....(Joh 15:8)By this my Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit and so prove to be my disciples....(Joh 15:9)As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Abide in my love....(Joh 15:10)If you keep my commandments, you will abide in my love, just as I have kept my Father's commandments and abide in his love....(Joh 15:11)These things I have spoken to you, that my joy may be in you, and that your joy may be full...(Joh15:12)..."This is my commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you....(Joh 15:13)Greater love has no one than this, that someone lay down his life for his friends.....(Joh 15:16)You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit and that your fruit should abide, so that whatever you ask the Father in my name, he may give it to you....(Joh 15:17)These things I command you, so that you will love one another.

Clearly seen when taken in context, its not the ten commandments that Christ has in focus, but abiding in His love that we can love one another. This is in harmony with Paul who wrote:

(Rom 10:4) For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.
(Rom 10:5) For Moses writes about the righteousness that is based on the law, that the person who does the commandments shall live by them.
(Rom 10:6) But the righteousness based on faith says, "Do not say in your heart, 'Who will ascend into heaven?'" (that is, to bring Christ down)
(Rom 10:7) or "'Who will descend into the abyss?'" (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead).
(Rom 10:8) But what does it say? "The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart" (that is, the word of faith that we proclaim);
(Rom 10:9) because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
(Rom 10:10) For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved.
(Rom 10:11) For the Scripture says, "Everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame."

(Rom 13:8) Owe no one anything, except to love each other, for the one who loves another has fulfilled the law.
(Rom 13:9) For the commandments, "You shall not commit adultery, You shall not murder, You shall not steal, You shall not covet," and any other commandment, are summed up in this word: "You shall love your neighbor as yourself."
(Rom 13:10) Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

Just as Christ who fulfilled all the law (613) by His life and blood, we fulfill the law not by following after it being in a sinful condition and less than perfect, but by being loving, tender hearted, merciful, and extending grace to one another, thus we fulfill and establish the righteousness that the law requires. Its not about us and performance, but about God in Christ and His performance. That needs to be and should be exulted more than my focus upon my following and performance.

The third passage is in reference to Isreal under the Old Covenant and has nothing to do with New Covenant believers.

AT

RND · May 20, 2008

Byfaithalone1 said:
Does obedience to the ten commandments have any bearing on my ability to:

(1) obtain salvation; -OR-

(2) maintain salvation?

BFA

P.S. When replying to this post, please address both point #1 and point #2. Thanks.

Sure. You bet.

1Jo 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

And according to John, this isn't news:

1Jo 2:7 Brethren, I write no new commandment unto you, but an old commandment which ye had from the beginning. The old commandment is the word which ye have heard from the beginning.

Mat 7:16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? Mat 7:17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. Mat 7:18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither [can] a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

1Ti 1:9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,

Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Moriah_Conquering_Wind · May 20, 2008

mva1985 said:
John 14:15
15 “If you love Me, keep My commandments."

Typical SDA trick, trying to tie this verse to anything in the OT.
Jesus' commandments He has iterated in the NT. Check your Gospels again.
His command to us bes that we love one another. Love works no ill, but love also references something other than codified behavioral rules for guidance how to act.

The problem bes not whether the 10 C's got done away with or fulfilled or WHAT.
The PROBLEM bes using them as reference for a codification of behaviors rather than entering a relational dynamic.
The relational dynamic means the relationship persists even if behavior has been unacceptable.
THAT bes the problem. Those "looking unto" the 10 C's INSTEAD of looking unto JESUS want to postulate that at any time if something in the 10C's gets broken -- let's say you covet something or lust after someone, not even doing the act just wanting to -- that bes evidence that sin lives in your flesh. SO WHAT. That does NOT break relationship with God. It simply provides evidence that His Word bes true when it says that in us (that being in our flesh) dwells NO good thing. It reminds us of our dependence upon HIM and our need of HIS Spirit to "walk in" in order to live in harmony with HIM and avoid fulfilling the lusts of the flesh. It does NOT mean oh you broke the rules again so your repentance now bes worthless and you stand before God as if you had never been saved.

The problem with looking to the law INSTEAD of to the relationship bes this: the law can ONLY condemn. It cannot save. It cannot heal or restore. So even if you want to argue that the 10C's have never been abolished or fulfilled -- FINE -- that still bes NOT the REAL ISSUE here. Toxic soteriology comes in and ensues when the law gets looked to and "referenced" instead of the relationship, EVERY time.

VictorC · May 20, 2008

Byfaithalone1 said:
Does obedience to the ten commandments have any bearing on my ability to:

(1) obtain salvation

NO.
Ephesians 2:8-10
8: For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9: Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10: For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Byfaithalone1 said:
(2) maintain salvation?

NO.
Romans 11:6-8
5: Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
6: And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
7: What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

As Hebrews 4:3 admonishes us, For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.
Salvation is based on election, adoption, and redemption - all attained in faith.

Victor

Moriah_Conquering_Wind · May 20, 2008

Adventtruth said:
It appears that you have lifted 3 different passages out of context to make your argument for law keeping for salvation.

The first passage clearly support that fact that we are saved by grace of God through faith plus nothing! Being in Christ we are re-created a new unto a holy and righteous life. (works)

The Second passage you truly are taking out of context. Lets look at what Christ and His listners understood that you are missing.

(Joh 14:15)"If you love me, you will keep my commandments.....(Joh 14:21)Whoever has my commandments and keeps them, he it is who loves me. And he who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I will love him and manifest myself to him."....(Joh 14:24)Whoever does not love me does not keep my words. And the word that you hear is not mine but the Father's who sent me.....(Joh 15:4)Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit by itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in me....(Joh 15:8)By this my Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit and so prove to be my disciples....(Joh 15:9)As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Abide in my love....(Joh 15:10)If you keep my commandments, you will abide in my love, just as I have kept my Father's commandments and abide in his love....(Joh 15:11)These things I have spoken to you, that my joy may be in you, and that your joy may be full...(Joh15:12)..."This is my commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you....(Joh 15:13)Greater love has no one than this, that someone lay down his life for his friends.....(Joh 15:16)You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit and that your fruit should abide, so that whatever you ask the Father in my name, he may give it to you....(Joh 15:17)These things I command you, so that you will love one another.

Clearly seen when taken in context, its not the ten commandments that Christ has in focus, but abiding in His love that we can love one another. This is in harmony with Paul who wrote:

(Rom 10:4) For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.
(Rom 10:5) For Moses writes about the righteousness that is based on the law, that the person who does the commandments shall live by them.
(Rom 10:6) But the righteousness based on faith says, "Do not say in your heart, 'Who will ascend into heaven?'" (that is, to bring Christ down)
(Rom 10:7) or "'Who will descend into the abyss?'" (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead).
(Rom 10:8) But what does it say? "The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart" (that is, the word of faith that we proclaim);
(Rom 10:9) because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
(Rom 10:10) For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved.
(Rom 10:11) For the Scripture says, "Everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame."

(Rom 13:8) Owe no one anything, except to love each other, for the one who loves another has fulfilled the law.
(Rom 13:9) For the commandments, "You shall not commit adultery, You shall not murder, You shall not steal, You shall not covet," and any other commandment, are summed up in this word: "You shall love your neighbor as yourself."
(Rom 13:10) Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

Just as Christ who fulfilled all the law (613) by His life and blood, we fulfill the law not by following after it being in a sinful condition and less than perfect, but by being loving, tender hearted, merciful, and extending grace to one another, thus we fulfill and establish the righteousness that the law requires. Its not about us and performance, but about God in Christ and His performance. That needs to be and should be exulted more than my focus upon my following and performance.

The third passage is in reference to Isreal under the Old Covenant and has nothing to do with New Covenant believers.

AT

AMEN AMEN AND AMEN!!!

Moriah enthusiastically endorses and "seconds" this post.

digdeep · May 20, 2008

Byfaithalone1 said:
Does obedience to the ten commandments have any bearing on my ability to:

(1) obtain salvation; -OR-

(2) maintain salvation?

BFA

P.S. When replying to this post, please address both point #1 and point #2. Thanks.

no on both counts. Only Jesus saves and keeps us saved. And it is ALL by Grace.

"being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus." Phil 1:6

"Let us fix our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy set before him endured the cross, scorning its shame, and sat down at the right hand of the throne of God." Heb 12:2

DD

Byfaithalone1 · May 20, 2008

RND said:
Sure. You bet.

RND said:
1Jo 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

Here's what you missed:

"My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous; and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world."

Like Jesus and Paul, John isn't advocating for salvation by human effort.

1Jo 2:7 Brethren, I write no new commandment unto you, but an old commandment which ye had from the beginning. The old commandment is the word which ye have heard from the beginning.

Here's what you missed:

"On the other hand, I am writing a new commandment to you, which is true in Him and in you, because the darkness is passing away and the true Light is already shining."

What does "in Him and in you" mean?

Ye shall know them by their fruits.

Here's what you missed.

"Beware of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves."

What are the fruits of your prophet?

Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,

In what way does this text suggest that the law is salvational? Here's is what we know about the relationship between the law and salvation:

“Brothers, my heart's desire and prayer to God for the Israelites is that they may be saved. For I can testify about them that they are zealous for God, but their zeal is not based on knowledge. Since they did not know the righteousness that comes from God and sought to establish their own, they did not submit to God's righteousness. Christ is the end of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes.” Romans 10:1-4

“All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law." Clearly no one is justified before God by the law, because, "The righteous will live by faith." The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, "The man who does these things will live by them." Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who is hung on a tree." He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit.” Galatians 3:10-14

“For when we were controlled by the sinful nature, the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in our bodies, so that we bore fruit for death. But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.” Rom. 7:5-6

“But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.” Romans 3:21-26

“You show that you are a letter from Christ, the result of our ministry, written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of human hearts. Such confidence as this is ours through Christ before God. Not that we are competent in ourselves to claim anything for ourselves, but our competence comes from God. He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant--not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life. Now if the ministry that brought death, which was engraved in letters on stone, came with glory, so that the Israelites could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of its glory, fading though it was, will not the ministry of the Spirit be even more glorious? If the ministry that condemns men is glorious, how much more glorious is the ministry that brings righteousness! 2 Corinthians 3

BFA

RND · May 20, 2008

BTA, Thanks for your input but I didn't miss anything. Can a man who has accepted Jesus as Lord and Savior continue in a life of sin?

Can a man who is a drunkard and wife beater and has accepted Jesus as Lord and Savior continue in a life of being a drunkard and wife beater?

Can a man who is a murderer and rapist and has accepted Jesus as Lord and Savior continue in a life of being murder and rape?

Luke 9:62 And Jesus said unto him, No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God.

Byfaithalone1 said:
Here's what you missed:
"My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous; and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world."

Like Jesus and Paul, John isn't advocating for salvation by human effort.

Here's what you missed:
"On the other hand, I am writing a new commandment to you, which is true in Him and in you, because the darkness is passing away and the true Light is already shining."

What does "in Him and in you" mean?

Here's what you missed.
"Beware of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves."

What are the fruits of your prophet?

In what way does this text suggest that the law is salvational? Here's is what we know about the relationship between the law and salvation:
Brothers, my heart's desire and prayer to God for the Israelites is that they may be saved. For I can testify about them that they are zealous for God, but their zeal is not based on knowledge. Since they did not know the righteousness that comes from God and sought to establish their own, they did not submit to God's righteousness. Christ is the end of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes. Romans 10:1-4

All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law." Clearly no one is justified before God by the law, because, "The righteous will live by faith." The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, "The man who does these things will live by them." Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who is hung on a tree." He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit. Galatians 3:10-14

For when we were controlled by the sinful nature, the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in our bodies, so that we bore fruit for death. But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code. Rom. 7:5-6

But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. Romans 3:21-26

You show that you are a letter from Christ, the result of our ministry, written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of human hearts. Such confidence as this is ours through Christ before God. Not that we are competent in ourselves to claim anything for ourselves, but our competence comes from God. He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant--not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life. Now if the ministry that brought death, which was engraved in letters on stone, came with glory, so that the Israelites could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of its glory, fading though it was, will not the ministry of the Spirit be even more glorious? If the ministry that condemns men is glorious, how much more glorious is the ministry that brings righteousness! 2 Corinthians 3

BFA

Byfaithalone1 · May 20, 2008

RND said:
Can a man who has accepted Jesus as Lord and Savior continue in a life of sin?

Yes, justified persons sin.

If a law had been given that could impart life, then righteousness would certainly have come by the law. But the Scripture declares that the whole world is a prisoner of sin, so that what was promised, being given through faith in Jesus Christ, might be given to those who believe." Galatians 3

But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. Romans 3:21-26

"For we know that the Law is spiritual, but I am of flesh, sold into bondage to sin. For what I am doing, I do not understand; for I am not practicing what I would like to do, but I am doing the very thing I hate. But if I do the very thing I do not want to do, I agree with the Law, confessing that the Law is good. So now, no longer am I the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me. For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh; for the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not. For the good that I want, I do not do, but I practice the very evil that I do not want. But if I am doing the very thing I do not want, I am no longer the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me. I find then the principle that evil is present in me, the one who wants to do good. For I joyfully concur with the law of God in the inner man, but I see a different law in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin which is in my members."

Luke 9:62 And Jesus said unto him, No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God.

Why do you conclude that this verse refers to obedience to the law? Why don't you conclude that this verse is about looking back after being called to a ministry?

Q: When does this corruptible put on incorruption?

BFA

RND · May 20, 2008

Byfaithalone1 said:
Yes, justified persons sin.

2Pe 2:22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog [is] turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

Mat 12:44 Then he saith, I will return into my house from whence I came out; and when he is come, he findeth [it] empty, swept, and garnished. Mat 12:45 Then goeth he, and taketh with himself seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter in and dwell there: and the last [state] of that man is worse than the first. Even so shall it be also unto this wicked generation.

Why do you conclude that this verse refers to obedience to the law? Why don't you conclude that this verse is about looking back after being called to a ministry?

Because genuine repentance from God works to remove that which was once normal in a man and is replaced with Christ's character.

Q: When does this corruptible put on incorruption?

At the second coming.

mva1985 · May 20, 2008

If a person does an honest study of what the Two Great Commandments are they will come to the realization that it was Jesus summing up the 10 Commandments - plain and simple.

Moriah_Conquering_Wind said:
Typical SDA trick, trying to tie this verse to anything in the OT.
Jesus' commandments He has iterated in the NT. Check your Gospels again.
His command to us bes that we love one another. Love works no ill, but love also references something other than codified behavioral rules for guidance how to act.

The problem bes not whether the 10 C's got done away with or fulfilled or WHAT.
The PROBLEM bes using them as reference for a codification of behaviors rather than entering a relational dynamic.
The relational dynamic means the relationship persists even if behavior has been unacceptable.
THAT bes the problem. Those "looking unto" the 10 C's INSTEAD of looking unto JESUS want to postulate that at any time if something in the 10C's gets broken -- let's say you covet something or lust after someone, not even doing the act just wanting to -- that bes evidence that sin lives in your flesh. SO WHAT. That does NOT break relationship with God. It simply provides evidence that His Word bes true when it says that in us (that being in our flesh) dwells NO good thing. It reminds us of our dependence upon HIM and our need of HIS Spirit to "walk in" in order to live in harmony with HIM and avoid fulfilling the lusts of the flesh. It does NOT mean oh you broke the rules again so your repentance now bes worthless and you stand before God as if you had never been saved.

The problem with looking to the law INSTEAD of to the relationship bes this: the law can ONLY condemn. It cannot save. It cannot heal or restore. So even if you want to argue that the 10C's have never been abolished or fulfilled -- FINE -- that still bes NOT the REAL ISSUE here. Toxic soteriology comes in and ensues when the law gets looked to and "referenced" instead of the relationship, EVERY time.

Moriah_Conquering_Wind · May 20, 2008

mva1985 said:
If a person does an honest study of what the Two Great Commandments are they will come to the realization that it was Jesus summing up the 10 Commandments - plain and simple.

"Honest study" = loaded terms attempting to "stack the deck". Not valid. Your assertion does not make it so. An "honest study" can lead to conclusions other than the one you have NOT derived yourself but in fact have adopted from others telling you how to view this passage.

It takes time and effort to learn to read scripture without the EGW-colored spectacles. But not until one does so can one make an "honest study" of one's own.

Bottom line: if righteousness could have come by the law, then Christ bes died in vain. (Galatians 2:21). No matter which way you slice it you cannot do away with the multitude of verses in scripture attesting to the true and only source of righteousness from God: Jesus Christ. Apart from the law. You heardsy.

Romans 3:21
But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify.

Galatians 2:21
I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

You will NOT fasten the yoke of bondage upon the Christian again. In the Name of Jesus Christ, the Lord rebuke the false dogmas of the Accuser and silence his lying lips. If you wish to advocate for lawkeeping constituting the means of either obtaining salvation or retaining one's hold upon it, we believe there bes a subforum already suited to that type of delusion -- and it bes not this one here.

Byfaithalone1 · May 21, 2008

But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog [is] turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

In what way does this text contradict the teaching of Scripture that justified persons sin?

Then he saith, I will return into my house from whence I came out; and when he is come, he findeth [it] empty, swept, and garnished. Then goeth he, and taketh with himself seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter in and dwell there: and the last [state] of that man is worse than the first. Even so shall it be also unto this wicked generation.

In what way does this text contradict the teaching of Scripture that justified persons sin?

Because genuine repentance from God works to remove that which was once normal in a man and is replaced with Christ's character.

Note that the text you cited says none of the above. These are your words.

At the second coming.

We agree. Since the corruptible does not put on incorrruption until Christ's second coming, do you conclude that justified persons are sinless prior to Christ's second coming? Is salvation contingent upon sinlessness or upon an adequate amount of sin removal? How much sin is too much sin?

BFA

Byfaithalone1 · May 21, 2008

Byfaithalone1 said:
Does obedience to the ten commandments have any bearing on my ability to:

(1) obtain salvation; -OR-

(2) maintain salvation?

BFA

Seems strange that so few folks are interested in discussing this topic. Do we agree that it is an important topic? In the interest of sparking more discussion, I have a follow-up question:

Q: Do the changes that the Holy Spirit creates in a believer qualify that believer for Heaven -OR- has the qualification of the believer already been secured?

BFA

P.S. Thanks to Peg for letting me borrow this question; I liked the way she worded it.

VictorC · May 21, 2008

Byfaithalone1 said:
Seems strange that so few folks are interested in discussing this topic. Do we agree that it is an important topic? In the interest of sparking more discussion, I have a follow-up question:

Q: Do the changes that the Holy Spirit creates in a believer qualify that believer for Heaven -OR- has the qualification of the believer already been secured?
BFA

Ephesians 1:6-14
6: To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
7: In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
8: Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;
9: Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
10: That in the dispensation of the fullness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
11: In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
12: That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
13: In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
14: Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

Byfaithalone1 said:
P.S. Thanks to Peg for letting me borrow this question; I liked the way she worded it.

Pegg is very good at asking the right questions, isn't she?

Salvation.

The gospel is Jesus Christ!

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The gospel is Jesus Christ!

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The gospel is Jesus Christ!

God is the Gospel!

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Jesus - that's my final answer

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The gospel is Jesus Christ!

Senior Veteran

The gospel is Jesus Christ!

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Senior Veteran

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The gospel is Jesus Christ!

The gospel is Jesus Christ!

Jesus - that's my final answer

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