Saints

FaithT · May 5, 2025

I received an early Mother’s Day present from my daughter yesterday, a St.Dymphna medal, which I wanted.. She lived in the 7th century. Question, I know that the RCC investigates everyone who becomes a saint very well before canonizing them. But how can we be assured that the stories of the Saints from that time period aren’t legends or partly legends? Even Catholic online says “one version“ of her story, making it indefinite.

Bob Crowley · May 5, 2025

I'm no expert on the history of church investigations for canonisation, but I doubt if the early church was as exacting as our modern church with the parallel of scientific research in search of the "Truth".

I've got a copy of Butler's "Saint for the Day" and it's not uncommon for the older saints to be myth as much as history. But in all cases there is some real background.

For example "St. George (died about 303) ... This renowned martyr, of whom virtually nothing historical is known, is Protector of England .."

There are good reasons for believing he was a genuine martyr, who was killed at Lydda (now Lod, in Israel), probably during the persecution of Diocletian, which started in 303. Detailed Acts of his martyrdom exist in many languages, and versions, .... but they are all so full of fable and magic that they were treated with suspicion even by those who dealt in this sort of exaggeration. The legend of the slaying of the dragon is a medieval introduction, possibly deriving from the Crusaders .... He was described .... as an officer in the Roman Army...."

The people of the time believed in signs and omens. I'm currently reading "Defending Contantine" by Peter Leihart. In it he states that

"...Weiss's scenariio (about Constantine's vision before the battle of the Milvian Bridge) explains a great deal about Constantine's subsequent career and faith: his recurrent use of light and sun imagery, his tendency to use solar energy when referring to Christ and to merge Christ with Sol the sun god, his sense of divine commission and his confidence of success, his devotion to the cross as a sign of victory and kingship, and the iconography of the sun that appears on Constatine's constructions and those of his heirs.

If David Petraeus had recommended a surge in Iraq based on an eclipse or a sign in the heavens, he would have been forced into psychiatric treatment, followed by early retirement. Constantine, though, was a fourth century Roman who, like everyone else in his time, believed that the gods guided humanity with signs and portents. He saw SOMETHING, something he interpreted as a sign that committing himself to the God of the Christians would give him victory...."

In 312 Constantine took over the empire and persecution ceased, along with crucifixion and the outlawing of gladiators (although that was harder to stamp out). He dealt with the Donatists and the Arians, not always successfully. That's not a bad track record for a man who had previously honoured Sol the sun god, at a time when Christians were only about 10 to 15 percent of the population.

The point though is that saints of that era would not have been subjected to modern methods of inquiry, with an appointed "devil's advocate" scrutinising every inch of their personal history.

So there could well be myth mixed up with historical claims of sanctity.

RileyG · May 5, 2025

FaithT said:
I received an early Mother’s Day present from my daughter yesterday, a St.Dymphna medal, which I wanted.. She lived in the 7th century. Question, I know that the RCC investigates everyone who becomes a saint very well before canonizing them. But how can we be assured that the stories of the Saints from that time period aren’t legends or partly legends? Even Catholic online says “one version“ of her story, making it indefinite.

Short answer: We trust in God.

Longer answer: we simply cannot know since no one from the 7th century is alive today, essentially, it's faith-based.

Also, I have a statue, icon, and medal of St. Dymphna! I ask for her prayers often.

FaithT · May 6, 2025

RileyG said:
Short answer: We trust in God.

Longer answer: we simply cannot know since no one from the 7th century is alive today, essentially, it's faith-based.

Also, I have a statue, icon, and medal of St. Dymphna! I ask for her prayers often.

I have a friend who is very Catholic and told her about the medal today and she didnt even know who St. Dymphna was. I thought pretty much every Catholic was familiar with her.

FaithT · May 6, 2025

Bob Crowley said:
I'm no expert on the history of church investigations for canonisation, but I doubt if the early church was as exacting as our modern church with the parallel of scientific research in search of the "Truth".

I've got a copy of Butler's "Saint for the Day" and it's not uncommon for the older saints to be myth as much as history. But in all cases there is some real background.

The people of the time believed in signs and omens. I'm currently reading "Defending Contantine" by Peter Leihart. In it he states that

In 312 Constantine took over the empire and persecution ceased, along with crucifixion and the outlawing of gladiators (although that was harder to stamp out). He dealt with the Donatists and the Arians, not always successfully. That's not a bad track record for a man who had previously honoured Sol the sun god, at a time when Christians were only about 10 to 15 percent of the population.

The point though is that saints of that era would not have been subjected to modern methods of inquiry, with an appointed "devil's advocate" scrutinising every inch of their personal history.

So there could well be myth mixed up with historical claims of sanctity.

But you think that even if myth is mixed up with their background, some of it is true? I mean true enough for them to be a legitimate saint?

mourningdove~ · May 6, 2025

There is a National Shrine of St. Dymphna, located here in the U.S.

In case you haven't already visited their website, here is what they say about her history ...

History – National Shrine of St. Dymphna

natlshrinestdymphna.org

FaithT · May 6, 2025

mourningdove~ said:
There is a National Shrine of St. Dymphna, located here in the U.S.

In case you haven't already visited their website, here is what they say about her history ...

History – National Shrine of St. Dymphna

natlshrinestdymphna.org

That was interesting, and no, I didn’t know she has a National Shrine here in the US.

Bob Crowley · May 6, 2025

FaithT said:
But you think that even if myth is mixed up with their background, some of it is true? I mean true enough for them to be a legitimate saint?

The people who argued for their acceptance lived a lot closer to them than we do. It would be based on some salient features.

Bob Crowley · May 6, 2025

Bob Crowley said:
The people who argued for their acceptance lived a lot closer to them than we do. It would be based on some salient features.

If you look up the link quoted above and repeated here, you'll notice that "...The remains of the saint were placed in a small church. Later necessity obliged the erection of the magnificent “Church of St. Dymphna,” which now stands on the site where the bodies were first buried. St. Dymphna’s relics repose there in a beautiful golden reliquary.

Miracles and cures began to occur in continually increasing numbers. Gradually St. Dymphna’s fame as patroness of victims of nervous diseases and mental disorders was spread from country to country. More and more mentally afflicted persons were brought to the shrine by relatives and friends, many coming in pilgrimages from far-distant places. Novenas wer made, and St. Dymphna’s relic was applied to the patients. The remarkable cures reported caused confidence in the saint to grow daily...."

History – National Shrine of St. Dymphna

natlshrinestdymphna.org

St. Dymphna - Saints & Angels - Catholic Online

Dymphna was born in Ireland sometime in the seventh century to a pagan father and devout Christian mother. When she was fourteen, she consecrated herself to Christ and took a vow of chastity. Soon afterward, her mother died and her father - who had loved his wife deeply - began to suffer a rapid ...

www.catholic.org

It also appears there is a program for the mentally ill which involves the whole community in Geel, Belgium which is the location of The Church of St. Dymphna.

Centuries later, St. Dymphna still inspires this extraordinary program for people with mental illness

With radical kindness and compassion, ordinary people help other ordinary people to lead more fulfilling lives.

aleteia.org

She's doing something up there.

RileyG · May 6, 2025

FaithT said:
I have a friend who is very Catholic and told her about the medal today and she didnt even know who St. Dymphna was. I thought pretty much every Catholic was familiar with her.

I don’t think she is very well known.

FaithT · May 6, 2025

Bob Crowley said:
If you look up the link quoted above and repeated here, you'll notice that "...The remains of the saint were placed in a small church. Later necessity obliged the erection of the magnificent “Church of St. Dymphna,” which now stands on the site where the bodies were first buried. St. Dymphna’s relics repose there in a beautiful golden reliquary.

Miracles and cures began to occur in continually increasing numbers. Gradually St. Dymphna’s fame as patroness of victims of nervous diseases and mental disorders was spread from country to country. More and more mentally afflicted persons were brought to the shrine by relatives and friends, many coming in pilgrimages from far-distant places. Novenas wer made, and St. Dymphna’s relic was applied to the patients. The remarkable cures reported caused confidence in the saint to grow daily...."

History – National Shrine of St. Dymphna

natlshrinestdymphna.org

St. Dymphna - Saints & Angels - Catholic Online

Dymphna was born in Ireland sometime in the seventh century to a pagan father and devout Christian mother. When she was fourteen, she consecrated herself to Christ and took a vow of chastity. Soon afterward, her mother died and her father - who had loved his wife deeply - began to suffer a rapid ...

www.catholic.org

It also appears there is a program for the mentally ill which involves the whole community in Geel, Belgium which is the location of The Church of St. Dymphna.

Centuries later, St. Dymphna still inspires this extraordinary program for people with mental illness

With radical kindness and compassion, ordinary people help other ordinary people to lead more fulfilling lives.

aleteia.org

She's doing something up there.

Amen!

RileyG said:
I don’t think she is very well known.

Maybe i just assumed that because of my anxiety disorders, so I’m familiar with her.

RileyG · May 6, 2025

FaithT said:
Amen!

Maybe i just assumed that because of my anxiety disorders, so I’m familiar with her.

Same here.

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