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Saddam had a stroke, may not make it to trial

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Piano Player

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Ricky Rector is a sad case, and Clinton should have commuted his death sentence. Never thought I would see someone argue that because Clinton did something it was ok for Bush to do so. Bush's execution record stands alone, and he has also presided over the execution of the mentally retarded. See http://www.cnn.com/2000/LAW/08/09/texas.double.execution.03/ Bush would have presided over the execution over another mentally retarded prisoner, Emile Duhamel, but Mr. Duhamel died on death row.

Tying this in with the OP, America is one of the few counties with capital punishment at all, and certainly one of the very few that would allow the execution of an under 18 offender. The rest of the world sees us as capable of almost anything in this regard. Our obsession with Hussain makes the world believe that if Hussain were incompetent we might still see to his execution. We almost stoop to the opposition's level. The problem with this is that a good part of the world sees the current conflict as between two extreme ideologies. That makes it hard for them to pick a side, or at least feel good about joining our side.
 
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SuzQ

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Piano Player said:
Ricky Rector is a sad case, and Clinton should have commuted his death sentence. Never thought I would see someone argue that because Clinton did something it was ok for Bush to do so.
Click to expand...

That's assuming a lot, isn't it? First of all, I tend to be against capital punishment myself. I'm a big supporter of prison ministry & feel that sometimes even the hardest of criminals have a chance of redemption by seeking Christ.

My only point about Ricky Rector is that you can't just criticize Bush alone in regards to capital punishment. It's a far-reaching, low-blow that's unfounded and irrelevant when Democratic leaders have supported the death penalty in many, many cases nationwide. I'm just sick of the Bush-bashing on that. You and I both know we're talking about the LAWS in the STATES of Texas and Arkansas, not really Clinton or Bush. My sister studied Criminal Justice & is a probation/parole officer. She said it's very difficult for a Governor to halt the execution of a prisoner if the entire prison board has reccommended the action. That's why it's such a rarity. A lawyer has to successfully raise serious questions & make a case of WHY they should overturn a court or jury's decision for the death penalty.

As far as what the rest of the world thinks, my husband is from Sweden. He and I have already discussed that there are countries much, much worse than the U.S. in regards to this form of punishment. As a woman, I know there are SEVERAL countries were women are legally beaten and KILLED by their husbands. Their husbands get absolutely no punishment. Some places still cut your hand off for stealing, don't forget.

At least we still believe in everyone receiving a TRIAL. Saddam is lucky that the new Iraqi Government is even giving him a chance to argue at HIS. Did he give his own insurgents a trial??? Nope. If Saddam were in another country, he may have just been executed, period, for his horrific crimes against the human race.

Just something else to consider....
 
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BobbieDog

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SuzQ said:
At least we still believe in everyone receiving a TRIAL. Saddam is lucky that the new Iraqi Government is even giving him a chance to argue at HIS. Did he give his own insurgents a trial??? Nope.
..
Just something else to consider....
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SuzQ, I have disturbing news for you.
We no longer give everyone a trial. Many are being held, without even access to family, or represenatives of any kind.
That SH has the right to a trial is part and parcel of what we claim to be bringing to Iraq: it is what, in distinguishing what we bring from what under SH prevailed, is the justification for our intervention.
Under the protocols of such trial, SH is innocent, until proven quilty.
All of your language and perspective on SH, in betraying a certainty as to his predetermined quilt, reveals a determination on your part that SH not be given a fair trial.
Trial becomes a formal matter of justifying guilt already determined: which is not trial under law as we know it.
So what you argue for, in the case of SH, is a continuation of what you condemn him for denying to others.
Just something else to consider.
 
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fragmentsofdreams

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It's not about about what anyone really deserves. The world is in such a mess because people are too obsessed with getting what they deserve and giving others what they deserve to forgive and start living in peace.
 
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SuzQ

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HUH?

First of all, I don't know ANYONE in the history of the current American criminal system who was sentenced to death row by simply being arrested & thrown there???? We've even given a captured September 11th terrorist a comfortable cell, a trial, & appointed him an attorney, for pete's sake. How's that for showing American fairness & sympathy, despite this man being upset because he wasn't able to participate in helping to crash a plane full of terrified men, WOMEN & CHILDREN. We are MORE than fair in this country to criminals.

Secondly, I never said Saddam didn't deserve a fair trial. I just simply stated that other countries may not have even given him that much. At the same time you're happy the U.S.'s influence gave him a right to a trial, you also think we don't want him to have a "fair" trial??? Sure, give him a fair trial, by all means.

Hate to break it to you, but there's OVERWHELMING evidence of Saddam gassing thousands of Shiite Muslims, not to mention other horrific torture stories from those that lived & had the "pleasure" of witnessing the execution of others. You think our Vietnam Vets have nightmares for the atrocities they saw in wartime? Imagine what sick, inhumane acts these poor Iraqi's had to witness & live with, for the rest of their lives. Even if these same Iraqi's didn't like the temporary U.S. occupation, remember that they STILL cheered and ran through the streets when our soldiers brought his ugly statues down!

The verdict is in the bag, as far as his being guilty of crimes against his own country. As long as there's not a slick attorney doing it "OJ" style and setting a murderer free, I'm satisfied with how they are going to proceed with Saddam.

No matter what happens, it will ultimately be God that judges him in the end, anyway. Yes, as Jesus taught, I do pray for ALL hateful, murderous souls to seek redemption before it's too late, despite my own human emotions.
 
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BobbieDog

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SuzQ, In Quantanamo bay, certainly in the UK, and presumably also in the USA, and in various holding centres around the world: many people are being held without trial, often without charge, often without access to family, often without family being able to get information about their relatives, often without access to legal representation, often without acces to medical professionals of choice.
That amounts to holding people without trial, in legal limbo, in judicial no-noman's land.
In these instances quilt seems to be predetermined. The President himself has said just how bad these mean men are: the case is closed he says; we need no trial for these men, they are quilty.
The very concept of a fair trial is being undermined by much of what is happening in foreign and homeland American policy. Guilt is now determined, to an increasing extent by profiling and assumption, carried in general culture. For a growing constituency in the custody of the USA, fair trial is now just not possible.
It will be interesting to see what happens in the upcoming Quantanamo hearings. Where the military lawyers appointed seem willing to pull the temple pillars down, and press that fair trial is not possible; where they are being supported in this by eminent legal academics.
 
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