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Jane_the_Bane

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Several religions out there rely upon a collection of texts that are considered holy, divinely inspired or even (in some cases) flawless and literal representations of Supreme Reality.

What I'd be interested in is how individual believers sustain this particular belief in their scriptures. What is it based on? Can you examine your holy text of choice the way you'd examine any other text, and yet still arrive at the same conclusion - or do you have to "stack the deck" in its favour by giving it an exalted status to begin with? What exactly is it that convinces you of its validity?
We all know the oft-parodied circular logic of "Book X says it's true, therefore it is true", but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that your reasons are much better than that.

So... what are they, exactly?
 
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Grumpy Old Man

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We all know the oft-parodied circular logic of "Book X says it's true, therefore it is true", but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that your reasons are much better than that.

Every argument on the validity of Scripture that I've seen or participated in has resorted to this. As scientific progress continues to refute the claims of the Bible, the only defence of those who believe in the Bible is to resort to circular reasoning based on its own claims to be true. Ironically, I've also found that those more liberal-minded Christians who cherry pick what they read as literal or allegory in the Bible will still defend the whole thing with the sweeping remark that they believe it to be true because it says it's true; they just like to pick which parts they believe are true to satisfy their own religious conscience.
 
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Greg1234

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The parables adequately summariize and consolidate all the mysteries in a simplified format. They're usually prefaced with a mapping to the corresponding spiritual element, a luxury which for the most part is unattainable anywhere else.

Texts are investigated just like one would with any other historical text and the requests by materialists to accept a text in 5 seconds or less are usually waved off (as it would be in any historical circle, at any given time). The materialistic claims based on certain texts are usually reprimanded due to a opposer's familiarity with the text. Claims based on texts in a remote jungle, an unknown society, or a distant traveling crew, are usually unfamiliar to Christians and hence a rebuke can be evaded.

Just like a non-Christian can scan the texts and come out with a "cannibalistic Jesus" so too materialists bear a ripe concoction of superficiality. In the end, familiarity with one's text is enough to learn what is required and having taken 40+ years to acquaint oneself with a certain text, the only results from spending another 40+ on each and every other one is a familiarity with redundancy, dereliction of one's spritual obligations, and a regret for having ever known the materialist.
 
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Jane_the_Bane

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So, after having a "Christians are naive literalists"-post followed by a "Non-Christians are expecting us to accept a text in five seconds or less"-post, can we perhaps have some genuine responses here? This thread isn't going to be a flame war, and this masturbatory strawman-bashing on all sides will stop, now.

I'm interested in having some real answers as to what makes you think that your holy text of choice (be it the Book or Mormon, the Vedas, the Qur'an, the writings of Baha'ullah, the Pali Canon, the Bible, the Torah or any other text that's regarded as holy) is "the real thing".
 
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bling

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The Bible was never designed to be the teacher/ the rule list/the source of your faith, which seems to be the case for the other books you mention. The Christian’s faith is not in a “book”, but it is in Christ.

For the Christian the Bible is one tool of many, but it is just what he needs.

The Bible is a support for the Christian’s belief.

The true mature Christian has an active relationship with the indwelling Holy Spirit that is constantly with him. The immature Christian has the indwelling Holy Spirit, but might rely more on the mature Christian for support to begin with.
 
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Jane_the_Bane

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The Bible was never designed to be the teacher/ the rule list/the source of your faith, which seems to be the case for the other books you mention. The Christian’s faith is not in a “book”, but it is in Christ.

Where do you derive your knowledge of the Christ from, if not the Bible?
Catholics and Orthodox Christians can point to extra-biblical traditions that are regarded as equally valid and binding, but what do you have to go on, if not the gospels?

Everything you know about Jesus, everything he's supposed to have done, said, and been - you only know because of the Bible.

Even for a protestant, your position seems to be highly unorthodox. "Sola Scriptura" is one of the core tenets of Protestantism, after all.

No biblical canon, no Christianity.
 
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JJWhite

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I have been told that there are certain intrinsic characteristics that naturally develop in every human being, and only through major environmental conditioning will they not show. These are the characteristics of inclining toward the belief in a Higher Spiritual Power, compassion, and justice.

It's a claim I've heard, and through my personal observation, I feel it has some weight. It does seem to me that these are ALMOST universal characteristics, though social conditioning can definitely warp them, and it does, as we have seen happen throughout history and continue to see. It seems though, from my dealings with people, that if one digs deep into people, no matter how they appear outwardly, one finds seeds of these things that can be cultivated.

I know that sounds sort of off-topic, but I find that strongly interwoven with why I accept the Qur'aan as a message from God. It gives the message (along with its partner the hadith) that people possess the ability to differentiate between right and wrong within them and that people are naturally inclined toward good. I'm not saying that any of these ideas are exclusive to Islamic texts, but that's part of the reason I believe in it so, as I will get to soon. So, one, I guess is that it calls out to the basic goodness that I feel I have observed in humanity.

Second.. I see it's message as one calling out to ALL humanity, and it's call is to being united in heart. This, you could say, appeals to my nature.

So, the above two reasons are just what I like about the message and why I feel it emanates from what I would imagine someone who's in charge of everything would be like. Of course, those are very subjective reasons, and I'm just typing as I think through this.

Three is probably the Qur'aanic claim that God has been sending messengers to every nation that existed since the first of our species. Along with the belief that people intrinsically seek good things, this adds to how so many good and similar teachings can be found within all religious traditions. I see both monotheism and polytheism in different historical documents that I come across from different parts of the world. This seems to also fit in with the Qur'aanic claim that there has continuously been throughout history a movement toward polytheism and a return to monotheism, and sometimes a weird mix sort of thing between the too (which I would categorize as polytheism under the guise of monotheism). I am happy to accept the good found in the texts of all religions, and I'm sure they carry many remnants of wisdom within them. I believe that most religions are somehow more or less rooted in God's teachings... just things get warped with time. Which brings me to point four.

Four is probably the issue of the preservation of the Qur'aan. From what I have studied, it seems to be the most carefully preserved book of influence from its era and prior. I think all matters of beliefs require a leap of faith. Honestly speaking, there is no absolute proof that any of our religious texts have been accurately preserved (or for any beliefs not based on hard objective evidence). However, when it comes to the preservation of the Qur'aan, the holes in the story are really, really small. It's more like 'hops of faith' than 'leaps of faith'. So, there's a very strong historical argument that the words that Muhammad (pbuh) taught his companions as the Qur'aan are the same words I'm reciting today. That is also a factor. Just the fact that we very most likely have the actual words in their original language.

Five is the supporting body of hadith and the strong filtration system our scholars developed to help sift out information about the time of revelation that is false from what is true. Again, not foolproof, but better than any other from that time period and prior.

Six would be the positive change that it brought to the area. (from history and observation)

Seven would be what kind of person Muhammad (pbuh) was and what he did. (from hadith)

Eight would be the style in which the Qur'aan is written. The more I study of it in Arabic, the more I appreciate how amazing it is. The beginning of certain chapters with random letters is like a challenge... as if saying.. here.. these are letters you use every day.. I'm not using anything out of the ordinary for you.. now produce something like it. How it constantly makes statements using Arabic grammatical structures with "understood" components is also amazing, because the same commandment or phrase can be used in a gazillion totally different situations. This is hard to explain in a post like this, but a small example might be praise for a person who "gives" in order to improve upon himself. Gives is a transitive verb... a normal sentence would include an object for that, but in that verse, the object of the sentence is to be "filled in" by the reader. The verse then applies to the one who can give time, give wealth, give an okay.. whatever. The verses are so versatile and can apply to so much. There's just so much to be said about the style in which the Qur'aan is written, and I discover more and more wondrous elements all the time. True, I already have an idea in my head and I'm looking for them, but what keeps me going is that I KEEP finding them. It really is amazing and I truly have seen nothing like it.. no joke.

Nine, is the message itself (which some of my first points mentioned some of the details of) with monotheism being at its essence. Besides the concept of an eternal punishment for some people in Hell (which is the more prominent opinion regarding what the Qur'aan is saying, though I hope that the minority opinion that it is annihilated after a long time turns out to be true), and some harsh punishments mandated for certain types of theft, murder, adultery, and high-treason (as I understand the texts), I find everything else ranging from absolutely beautiful to easy to accept (since I observe evident good in it). As for those punishments, I do find their legislation rather hard on me, but I accept.

Just to make it a list of ten.. hmm... I do not believe that the Qur'aan was ever meant to be a science book. I am not a supporter of trying to use its verses to prove scientific theories and such. However, I don't think I've ever come across any scientific fact/set of facts that clearly contradicts all logical/acceptable interpretations of any verse. Rather, I find the opposite often, where verses seem to be very much in line with what we know from science.

I was just kind of rambling.. this isn't meant to be a well thought out analysis... just some things I think about once in a while, and since we were asked, brought up.

As for more recent texts that are also accurately preserved like the Book of Mormon or the Bahai Scriptures, these I do not accept because (1) they clearly contradict elements of a prior well-preserved book which I believe in due to the aforementioned reasons, (2) in the case of B. of Mormon, it contradicts essential matters of theology found within Judaism and Islam (and even what Christianity agrees with us), and (3) in the case of the Baha'i Scriptures, I looked up some of the ones that were written by the founder in Arabic and they sound like a non-native Arabic speaker/school kid wrote them. That just doesn't work for me. Plus.. some stuff, especially in Mormonism, is just kinda weird to me... doesn't seem logical.

Oh... something I also find amazing... how millions of Muslims around the world, even kids, have the Qur'aan memorized cover to cover in their hearts, and over a billion have parts of it carried in their hearts. True, one can think of this as a manifestation of the importance WE attach to it, but still, it's fascinating that something could earn that much respect. Now, if I could just get all of those who memorize to try to study what it says.

Probably could have written this better... but, oh well.
 
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bling

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People learned of Jesus before the Bible (New Testament) was written.

The way the non Christian is to “learn” about Jesus is to see Him virtually first hand, living through a true Christian. God is Love and Jesus is Love and a true Christian is to be Love, so that Godly type Love is what the non Christian is to see, feel, and experience to the point of wanting and accepting that Love as charity or refusing the Love and not accepting it as Charity. When you humbly accept Godly type Love as charity you are truly accepting Christ.
 
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dlamberth

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Because all Holy Text point believers toward the Light of the Divine, for myself ALL Holy Text ARE "the real thing". It's not the outer words of belief that I'm look at, but the inner light that shines upon ones soul.

I know that's not what your asking, but there you go anyway.

.
 
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smaneck

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What I'd be interested in is how individual believers sustain this particular belief in their scriptures. What is it based on?

That's a big question. For Baha'is the sacredness of a scripture is tied into its connection with a Manifestation of God, those Persons who demonstrate in their own Person all we can understand about God humanly speaking. This would include figures like Abraham, Krishna, Moses, Zoroaster, Buddha, Jesus, Muhammad, the Bab and Baha'u'llah. The closer the link the Manifestation and the scripture associated with Him, the more authentic the scriptures are presumed to be. For instance we might regard the Qur'an as somewhat more authentic because every word is said to have been revealed through Muhammad, whereas Jesus didn't write the Bible or even dictate it. That's not to say we don't believe that the basic integrity of His Message wasn't preserved in the Gospels, in fact I think it was. The Baha'i scriptures which consist primarily of the Writings of the Bab and Baha'u'llah are considered more authentic still because, for the most part, they were written in the Manifestations own pen.


I suppose that depends on what you mean by 'the way you'd examine any text" and what the 'same conclusion means? I'm a professor and when I examine the Baha'i scriptures for academic purposes I certainly try and do so the same way I would any other text. I don't treat any scripture as infallible when it comes to scientific or even historical matters because that is not the purpose of scripture. The purpose of scripture is to convey spiritual truths and such things are not subject to scientific examination by their very nature. I accept the authority of my scriptures to the extent to which I accept the authority of the One who revealed it.
 
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ViaCrucis

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The Bible should be read critically, analytically, contextually and literately. That is it should be scrutinized in order to understand what it's actually saying. At that point the questions of inspiration come into play and what it means.

The Bible doesn't need to be "inerrant" as some suggest for it to be inspired. The Bible doesn't need to be a compendium of all things divine. The Bible just needs to say what it's actually saying. Taking on faith that it is inspired means, at that point, that hearing the Bible speak honestly means making sense of what it's saying in ways that are truthful, faithful and meaningful. It does not mean forcing the Bible to "come out right", it does not mean forcing the Bible to conform to our modern notions of inerrancy. That's not letting the Bible be honest.

Let the Bible be honest and if that challenges our preconceptions then so be it, the Bible should challenge people of faith, it should cause us to stop and think, to cause us to ask questions, to re-think ourselves and our faith. It should at times offend us. At times we are going to struggle with it, wrestle with it. It's going to challenge us, and we're going to challenge it, and it's through this process that we can grow in our faith in Christ.

One of my biggest beefs with the modern notions of inerrancy and "literalism" is that it's not ultimately taking the Bible as seriously as it should be.

Inspiration does not mean the Bible has to "come out right" the way we want it to, it means that God is dynamically speaking to us in and through it. That dynamic means that it is a living word that continues and continually provokes, challenges, causes us to think and question, and compels us to seek, knock, ask, and ultimately to grow.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Sister of Faith

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My reply to your thread may not satisfy you, but for me as an Arabic Muslim female I got impressed with the language of Quran. I can distinguish between the different styles of text but the Quran is unique and is never repeated. It is perfect and if someone, by mistake, changed a single word or a single letter or even change the pronunciation of a word the meaning could change.
I have examples of what I'm saying but it might be difficult for me to translate it. but I will try if you insist!
I advice you to learn the Arabic language to taste the beauty of the Quranic language.
One fact about the Quran is that it is easy to memorize the Quran and it is also easy to forget what you have memorized. I face this problem.The Quran is different from any other material that is memorized such as poetry and prose. And this is because the Quran is quickly lost from one’s mind. In fact the Messenger of Allah said: "By Him in whose Hand is my soul, it is faster in escaping than a tied camel." Reported by Bukhari and Muslim.
One more thing, Allah said to Muslims (through the Quran) to keep a good relationship with the Quran and a person who choose to live his life away from the Quran will have a tough life. Believe me this is absolutely true; even if you are doining your prayers at time but not have recited the Quran for sometime or listened to a recitation, you got lost and it will be easy for Satan and bad desires and thoughts to destroy you and you will loose the state of inner peace in your heart. Allah says:{But whosoever turns away from My remembrance, his shall be a life of narrowness,..} [20:124]. The more you get close to the Quran (the Word of Allah) the more you become happy.
 
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Jane_the_Bane

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People learned of Jesus before the Bible (New Testament) was written.
Hence: "sacred tradition", as proposed by the Eastern and Western Church.

If it all boils down to love and nothing but love, what about the tenets of the Nicene Creed? The Beatitudes? Jesus's death on the cross and subsequent resurrection? Is everything that's in the Bible merely a footnote to "live lovingly"?

In that case, I can probably claim "Christianship" even though I do not put much stock in the Bible (OT or NT). Why? Because my spirituality is all about love and connection.
 
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smaneck

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Well said!

 
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SanFrank

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Again looking for extra-scriptural proofs? You are aware of archaelogical finds that credit biblical accounts all the way back to the time of Moses. Why don't you go with that as proof. How about the dead sea scrolls validating the OT scripture going back to at least 200BC? How about the contents of the NT validating claims of the OT? I'm glad I had faith before ever glancing at these extra-biblical proofs; I would not want my faith to rely on those proofs. I'm glad I believe by having heard the Word.
 
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SanFrank

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Are you serious??? I know I don't view that at all from qur'an or hadith but then I don't believe Assad either when he said he does not order his military to crack down on dissenters. What good do you see from hadith? The 50+ right-sided attributes that muslims are supposed to adhere to but don't?
Second.. I see it's message as one calling out to ALL humanity, and it's call is to being united in heart. This, you could say, appeals to my nature.
What?? You mean by force as the mujahideen are encouraged to rape infidel women. What do you mean by calling humanity to unity???
Well obviously past threads on qur'anic critique were obviously overlooked and you fail to challenge your faith. I understand muslims prefer to overlook critique because islam does not stand up to the truth. Muslim faith is only on shaky ground.
 
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smaneck

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Again looking for extra-scriptural proofs? You are aware of archaelogical finds that credit biblical accounts all the way back to the time of Moses.

Biblical accounts of what exactly? Is there archaeological proof that Pharaoh's army drowned in the Red Sea? How about an Egyptian account of all their first-born sons dying?

Why don't you go with that as proof. How about the dead sea scrolls validating the OT scripture going back to at least 200BC?

What does that prove other than the fact that the books of the OT are at least 2200 years old? Obviously, the OT is a primary source for the period in which it was written. That begs the question as to whether or not it should be considered the Word of God.

How about the contents of the NT validating claims of the OT? I'm glad I had faith before ever glancing at these extra-biblical proofs;

How does that constitute an extra-biblical proof. Last I heard both the OT and the NT were part of the Bible.
 
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Avelina777

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Agreed!!
 
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smaneck

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I know this sounds circular, Jane, but ultimately don't we believe something to be the Word of God because when we read it we hear God speak? I don't hear that when I read the Book of Mormon. I do hear it when I read Baha'u'llah's Writings. And unlike most people I've pretty much read all the texts you name above.
 
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