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Is that in the Bible?The sabbath begins Friday at sunset and terminates Saturday at sunset.
Is that in the Bible?
is there a point to the above post?
Yes, there is a very good point to what eyeballdub stated above.
It's a folly for Christians to live under a law or laws which no longer exist.
This is the reason so few Jews accept Jesus as the Messiah these days. The Torah explicitly says that even if a miracle worker comes along and teaches you to ignore Torah, that person is a false prophet without even a glimmer of the dawning light.
Jesus himself said that he had not come to abolish the law but to fill it up/out. But this does not mean he overthrew it otherwise lots of his other statements would make no sense (such as keep the commands - to the rich young man).
This situation is like stopping at a corner after the stop signs has been removed. You can stop, but you don't have to. This is similar to Christians who adhere to keeping the Sabbath. Tradition must not blind us and keep us unaware of changes which occur as the Word of God progresses from one age to the next.
You seem to be implying that the Sabbath was purely a Torah issue (in the law sense) - however, the Sabbath was kept long before the law, for example, when the children of Israel (including the Egyptians who left with them) were wandering in the desert when God provided manna, they were told to gather twice as much on day six to account for the Sabbath (so obviously God was not going to feed them this day and they were unable to gather also).
The law of the Sabbath were given to Israel and therefore, apply to Israel.
See previous comments above. The logic here is slightly faulty as we have Israel before AND after the giving of the law. In both instances, the Sabbath was kept. God had observed it since creation and according to traditional Judaic sources dating back well before Jesus, all were expected even non-Israel to keep the sabbath.
Since these laws were never given to the Church, their interpretation cannot be for it.
In hebrews it speaks about a seventh day of rest for the believer that will reach its fullness in the kingdom (greek word sabbatismos - only ever occurs once in the new testament).
Incidentally we have to conclude that Jesus gave no further teaching, as the commands he did give to his disciples were all Torah with the exception of celebrating his final supper (though even this was a passover meal).
The Sabbath laws were applied to and for Israel and as such were never altered, changed or transferred to any other period
the sabbath laws and all the laws were for all Israel and those who joined themselves to her (strangers and aliens). The new testament says we have been brought into the commonwealth of Israel by the blood of Christ (Ephesians) and as such are able (should we choose to do so) to keep the blessings/curses and the festivals of the Lord. Further to this, Peter quoting the tanakh states 'be holy for I am holy'. it is difficult to say or even define sin if the law is not applicable to believers as you are saying it is of no effect anyway. I believe the early church had a phrase for this 'antinomianism'.
The Scriptures clearly states that we as born-again sons of God are not under the law, but grace.
Romans 7:4:Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the bodyHow can the law possibly have power over us if the law is dead?on account ofthe body of Christ....
People trying to live under a law which does not pertain to them is not new in the Christian age. Paul had such in the church at Galatia.
Galatians 4:31:So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.Galatians 5:1:Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again in the yoke of bondage.Galatians 4:9-11:(9) But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?(10) Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years.(11) I am afraid of you, lest I have bestowed upon you labour in vain.Romans 14:5, 6
it always bothers me, that the book most often trotted out is Galatians. REMEMBER, if Paul is teaching people not to obey Torah then according to the Tankakh which he appeals to, to support his theological argument, then he would make himself a false prophet. Which puts the Galatians argument in a quandary. He appears to be using texts from a book which is then powerless.
One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day [alike]. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.He that regardeth the day, regardeth [it] unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard [it]. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.Colossians 2:16:
context is everything. Remember that if Paul is saying 'don't keep the biblical holidays' he is a false prophet. But here he is talking about the two fast days which were common amongst many jews at this time. Each week there were two fast days but not everyone kept them. So on these days, some people keep them, some don't. Some people don't eat some do.
This verse is nothing to do with the leviticus 23 holidays.
Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath [days]:The vast majority of Christians assemble to worship on Sundays, on which day Jesus was first seen in his resurrected body. Simply because most of us observe Sunday, does not mean we keep it under the compulsion of the law; we keep it because we are under grace and wish to do so. In our age of the Church Administration, every day is sacred according to the Word of God, and not one day more so than any other day. Every day should be live unto the Lord, though in our tradition most Christians have set aside Sunday especially as a day of rest and special worship.
See item above.
this to some degree i would agree with. However, when the two Mary's went to them tomb, it was on the first day of the week. The first day of the week would have been the equivalent of Saturday - Sunday (not simply Sunday). they could not go to the tomb before this due to Sabbath restrictions.
Jesus in discussing what should happen when the temple was destroyed, (i.e. flee to the hills) says clearly 'hope and pray it is not in winter or on Sabbath'
Why would he say this if we are arguing the Sabbath was not binding on his followers?
When we rightly divide the Word of Truth, we clear the atmosphere of the wrong teaching regarding the Sabbath and the other days mentioned in the Bible. We are not believers tied to one legalistic day of worship. We worship God daily in spirit and in truth. Tradition dare not blind us to the truth of the light of God's Word.
cyberlizard, please respond in the normal manner which is to put what I stated in the quote box and give your reply beneath. Thank you.
What I stated in my previous post and my answer to your reply is in bold italics. Your statements are in bold blue.
Victorious 1
It's a folly for Christians to live under a law or laws which no longer exist.
cyberlizard:
This is the reason so few Jews accept Jesus as the Messiah these days. The Torah explicitly says that even if a miracle worker comes along and teaches you to ignore Torah, that person is a false prophet without even a glimmer of the dawning light
Vicorious 1:
Chapter and verse please ____________________
cyberlizard:
Jesus himself said that he had not come to abolish the law but to fill it up/out. But this does not mean he overthrew it otherwise lots of his other statements would make no sense (such as keep the commands - to the rich young man).
Victorious 1:
Jesus did not come to do away with "righteousness" of the law, but He did away with the "doing of the law FOR righteousness. "Our righteousness" is the righteousness we receive by God's grace through the accomplished believing and finished work of Jesus Christ.
Actually, Matthew 19;16-20 show that it is not the "works" of the law that gives a person eternal life. Though the young ruler obeyed the moral aspect of the law in his relationship to man, God was not first and foremost in his heart. The young ruler put his earthly riches and position before or ahead of God. In verse 26, Jesus told his disciples by man's own doing/works, it is impossible to be saved, but with God all things are possible. It is only by God's grace and what He wrought through Jesus Christ that man can be saved.
Victorious 1:
This situation is like stopping at a corner after the stop signs has been removed. You can stop, but you don't have to. This is similar to Christians who adhere to keeping the Sabbath. Tradition must not blind us and keep us unaware of changes which occur as the Word of God progresses from one age to the next.
cyberlizard:
ou seem to be implying that the Sabbath was purely a Torah issue (in the law sense) - however, the Sabbath was kept long before the law, for example, when the children of Israel (including the Egyptians who left with them) were wandering in the desert when God provided manna, they were told to gather twice as much on day six to account for the Sabbath (so obviously God was not going to feed them this day and they were unable to gather also).
Victorious 1:
Iam not implying that the Sabbath was purely a Torah issue at all. And, I am also aware that God gave the sabbath day as a day of rest for His people before it was written as one of the commandments of God that was given to Moses on Mount Sinai. However, keeping the Sabbath is no longer a law or requirement that Christians must keep because Jesus fulfilled the law, which includes keeping the Sabbath "as a law." Genesis 2:2 --- On the seventh day God ceased from all "His" labor.
God sanctified or set apart the seventh day as a day of rest which God had prepared for His people. God was not tired by his creative work, he did not need to rest to restore strength. He did not stop because he was fatigued; he stopped because he was through. It simply means God had finished the heavens and earth which He made for man. He stopped because He was done. This is the meaning of the word Sabbath and this was the message that was given throughout the the Old Testament and Gospel period. The rest from the law for righteousness was founded on the day of Pentecost and we by faith continue in that rest in Christ Jesus.
As born-again believers or Christians, our rest is in the "finished work of Jesus Christ." Hebrews 4:10: For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God [did] from his." As God rested from His work on the seventh day from His finished work (Genesis 2:2), we cease from our own works as a means for righteousness by faith through or because of the finished work of Jesus Christ.
Victorious 1:
The law of the Sabbath were given to Israel and therefore, apply to Israel.
cyberlizard:
See previous comments above. The logic here is slightly faulty as we have Israel before AND after the giving of the law. In both instances, the Sabbath was kept. God had observed it since creation and according to traditional Judaic sources dating back well before Jesus, all were expected even non-Israel to keep the sabbath.
Victorious 1:
Israel observed the Sabbath under the Old Covenant law which was given to Moses but this law ceased by the work of Jesus Christ who FULFILLED THE LAW. What part of "fulfilled the law" don't you understand? You tend to stay too much in the Old Testament and you misunderstand what is written in the Book of Hebrews.
Non-Israel? The Gentiles were expected to keep the Sabbath? Where? Please show me chapter and verse.
Victorious 1:
Since these laws were never given to the Church, their interpretation cannot be for it.
cyberlizard:
In Hebrews it speaks about a seventh day of rest for the believer that will reach its fullness in the kingdom (greek word sabbatismos - only ever occurs once in the new testament).
Please give me the reference so I can read the whole context.
cyberlizard:
Incidentally we have to conclude that Jesus gave no further teaching, as the commands he did give to his disciples were all Torah with the exception of celebrating his final supper (though even this was a passover meal).
Victorious 1:
I don't know who "we" is, but I certainly do not have to conclude such a thing. Jesus Christ did not command his disciples to follow the laws or traditions of the Old Testament because Jesus came to teach and to prepare them for the New Covenant of grace which is void of all law, including the keeping of the Sabbath as a law. The New Covenant has nothing to do with the Torah which is of the Old Covenant. I think you are spending too much time in the Old Testament then in the Epistles that are addressed to born-again Christians. You won't find it any place in the Epistles that teach that the Sabbath must be kept as a law for Christians.
Victorious 1:
The Sabbath laws were applied to and for Israel and as such were never altered, changed or transferred to any other period
cyberlizard:
the sabbath laws and all the laws were for all Israel and those who joined themselves to her (strangers and aliens). The new testament says we have been brought into the commonwealth of Israel by the blood of Christ (Ephesians) and as such are able (should we choose to do so) to keep the blessings/curses and the festivals of the Lord. Further to this, Peter quoting the tanakh states 'be holy for I am holy'. it is difficult to say or even define sin if the law is not applicable to believers as you are saying it is of no effect anyway. I believe the early church had a phrase for this 'antinomianism'.
Victorious 1:
The commonwealth is not the law. It's talking about the "common good" which was brought about by the shed blood of Jesus Christ for the remissions of sins. Ephesians is all about our righteousness and who we are and what we have in Christ Jesus. It concerns the Mystery which the Church of the Body of Christ - both Jew and Gentile are joint heirs together with Christ. It's about our inheritance, our being seated in heavenly place in Christ.
You really need to be careful that you do not read into Scripture what is not written because it will only lead to a wrong dividing of God's Word and then to false doctrine. I won't bother dealing with the rest of what you posted because they fall into the category of private interpretation due to a lack of understanding of the Word of God.
As I have already stated in my previous post:
The vast majority of Christians assemble to worship on Sundays, on which day Jesus was first seen in his resurrected body. Simply because most of us observe Sunday, does not mean we keep it under the compulsion of the law; we keep it because we are under grace and wish to do so. In our age of the Church Administration, every day is sacred according to the Word of God, and not one day more so than any other day. Every day should be live unto the Lord, though in our tradition most Christians have set aside Sunday especially as a day of rest and special worship.
When we rightly divide the Word of Truth, we clear the atmosphere of the wrong teaching regarding the Sabbath and the other days mentioned in the Bible. We are not believers tied to one legalistic day of worship. We worship God daily in spirit and in truth. Tradition dare not blind us to the truth of the light of God's Word.
Love in Christ
Victorious 1
however read Isaiah 8, Deuteronomy 13, Hebrews 4 and specifically hebrews 4v9 - for the one of use of the word sabbatismos (as opposed to sabbaton - the extremely usual word for sabbath).
regardless of what you probably think we agree on our theology, just not on its practice.
You see the OT as practically irrelevant (just for teaching and stuff)
I see it as
practical and relevant - if the OT law is done away with, how will Jesus fulfil the outstanding festivals?
I observe the festivals because I am entitled to do so (ephesians 2) and doing what God says pleases him.... it is called faith.
The Old Testament is for our learning and does not "apply" to us. There are principles that can be applied but they must agree with Scripture that is written to the born-again Christian in the Church Episitles or Pauline Episitle.remember, the Torah is their to teach and guide and lead you to messiah, but it leads you to him and teaches you to follow him, unlike a taxi cab which simply drops you at the door.
p.s. jesus said i am the way the truth and the life (these same titles are used of Torah), so if jesus is the embodiment of Torah why would we think he has changed his mind over his standards.
p.s. jesus said i am the way the truth and the life (these same titles are used of Torah), so if jesus is the embodiment of Torah why would we think he has changed his mind over his standards.
but just in closing. you do keep the law (you just do not want to admit it) - find one part of jesus' teaching which does not have its basis in the Torah and I will happily shut up
"And evening and morning were the ........day". This from Genesis. The days actually began with the evening, or dark period. In Jesus day the tradition continued. The day ended at sunset, therefore the new, or next, day began the next moment.I keep the Sabbath. I have a question though I did not know that the Sabbath begins with he sunset. I thought it began with the sunrise. May someone explain this to me? I appreciate the help.
Your information is greatly appreciated. I now will keep the Sabbath as I was meant to. :3"And evening and morning were the ........day". This from Genesis. The days actually began with the evening, or dark period. In Jesus day the tradition continued. The day ended at sunset, therefore the new, or next, day began the next moment.
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