Romans 11

Westminster Puritan 1646 · Feb 28, 2005

Romans 11
17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in.
20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graff them in again.
24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?

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Am I correct in understanding the root to be the Abrahamic Covenant?

Imblessed · Feb 28, 2005

I was just re-reading Romans yesterday and circled this whole chapter as something to try and figure out!

Hopefully we will get some good conversation going. Because when I read that, I see Paul making a clear distinction between the Jews and Gentiles and even(further on in the chapter) insinuating that God is not "finished" with Jew/Isrealites as a nation, that as a nation, or people, that He will be re-establishing some sort of...oh, I don't know, new relationship with them and them alone in the last days--which is contrary to what I had believed before.

I don't mean to take this off topic from the verses you quoted--I just realized I might have done that...

Westminster Puritan 1646 · Mar 1, 2005

Imblessed said:
I was just re-reading Romans yesterday and circled this whole chapter as something to try and figure out!

Hopefully we will get some good conversation going. Because when I read that, I see Paul making a clear distinction between the Jews and Gentiles and even(further on in the chapter) insinuating that God is not "finished" with Jew/Isrealites as a nation, that as a nation, or people, that He will be re-establishing some sort of...oh, I don't know, new relationship with them and them alone in the last days--which is contrary to what I had believed before.

I don't mean to take this off topic from the verses you quoted--I just realized I might have done that...

I agree but I come from a premillenial dispensational background and have been reading about Covenant theology who seem to teach that Israel = the church and the church = Israel. I believe that Romans 11:17-24 show that the Abrahamic Covenant is the source of blessing for Gentiles (wild branches grafted in) and Israel (natural branches)

ruby_redeemed · Mar 1, 2005

Well the Olive Branch is the Jews, the Old Testiment is clear that only the Jews were God's chosen people, and the grafting in is for the others that weren't born Jewish, so it makes it possible for someone like me who is not born Jewish to become part of His chosen people.

Imblessed · Mar 1, 2005

Westminster Puritan 1646 said:
I agree but I come from a premillenial dispensational background and have been reading about Covenant theology who seem to teach that Israel = the church and the church = Israel. I believe that Romans 11:17-24 show that the Abrahamic Covenant is the source of blessing for Gentiles (wild branches grafted in) and Israel (natural branches)

I come from a pre-millenial dispensational background also. I'm not sure I agreed with it, so I started looking into Covenant theology, which makes more sense to me--except when I re-read Romans! LOL Now I'm confused..

Ebb · Mar 1, 2005

Westminster Puritan 1646 said:
Am I correct in understanding the root to be the Abrahamic Covenant?

I believe Jesus Christ is the root Paul is referring to, as he later quotes from Isaiah:

And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious. Isaiah 11:10

And again, Esaias saith, There shall be a root of Jesse, and he that shall rise to reign over the Gentiles; in him shall the Gentiles trust. Romans 15:12

And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof. Revelation 5:5

I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star. Revelation 22:16

Ebb · Mar 1, 2005

Also, compare with John 15:1-7, where Jesus says "I am the vine, ye are the branches":

1I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman. 2Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit. 3Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you. 4Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. 5I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. 6If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. 7If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.

Westminster Puritan 1646 · Mar 2, 2005

Imblessed said:
I come from a pre-millenial dispensational background also. I'm not sure I agreed with it, so I started looking into Covenant theology, which makes more sense to me--except when I re-read Romans! LOL Now I'm confused..

Lockheed · Mar 4, 2005

Ebb nailed it.

Mayflower Pilgrim · Mar 5, 2005

Lockheed said:
Ebb nailed it.

I believe he did. In Romans and Galatians Paul is redefining the meaning of Israel. I think the matter hinges upon Galatians 3:16 "Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ."

This plainly teaches that the seed of Abraham is Jesus Christ and that there is only one seed, that is Jesus Christ. Therefore "if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise." (Gal 3:29)

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