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*jaw drops to ground* Outstanding!!!! We may not always share the same personal convictions but I have rarely heard such a reasonable and well articulated statement of ones convictions. You'll get no argument from me here.Neverstop said:I have NO problem admitting the grotesque reality of what abortion is: to end a human life before it can even begin living.
However, and this is the challenging part, I must respect the boundaries as they have been handed down by God. I know I know...VERY loaded statement.
Let me try to explain: God could have created us so both sexes could get pregnant and God could have created us to lay eggs, which would ultimately and infinitely complicate the abortion debate. For whatever reasons, God made pro-creation as we know it to be. Within that structure I am extremely humbled and limited by the fact I can NEVER know what it is like to be impregnated, carry, and deliver a baby into this world. In the same stretch, I am wholly unable to know what it is like to choose to end a life, and all that accompanies such a wrenching decision.
Because less than half of our population is strictly forbidden from walking in women's shoes (well, except for some Hoover people) we must respect womens' inherent, and even God given, ability to decide what is done with her pregnancy.
While I would never support anti-abortion legislature I do oppose the practice of abortion, but my reasons and extrapolations do not trump the boundaries of bodily respect we should have for one another.
What a woman does w/ her body is STRICTLY between her and her God.
gengwall said:*jaw drops to ground* Outstanding!!!! We may not always share the same personal convictions but I have rarely heard such a reasonable and well articulated statement of ones convictions. You'll get no argument from me here.
I also oppose abortion under some circumstances; for example, the birth of a child would be 'inconvenient' or it's the 'wrong gender.'Neverstop said:I have NO problem admitting the grotesque reality of what abortion is: to end a human life before it can even begin living.
However, and this is the challenging part, I must respect the boundaries as they have been handed down by God. I know I know...VERY loaded statement.
Let me try to explain: God could have created us so both sexes could get pregnant and God could have created us to lay eggs, which would ultimately and infinitely complicate the abortion debate. For whatever reasons, God made pro-creation as we know it to be. Within that structure I am extremely humbled and limited by the fact I can NEVER know what it is like to be impregnated, carry, and deliver a baby into this world. In the same stretch, I am wholly unable to know what it is like to choose to end a life, and all that accompanies such a wrenching decision.
Because less than half of our population is strictly forbidden from walking in women's shoes (well, except for some Hoover people) we must respect womens' inherent, and even God given, ability to decide what is done with her pregnancy.
While I would never support anti-abortion legislature I do oppose the practice of abortion, but my reasons and extrapolations do not trump the boundaries of bodily respect we should have for one another.
What a woman does w/ her body is STRICTLY between her and her God.
Neverstop said:To me, any and all definitions concerning a "person" or "human" are completely irrelevent because it is still inside the woman's body.
There is absolutely nothing in a man comparable to pregnancy and I have NO doubt if men could get pregnant as well the "abortion" debate would be non-existent.
Domi_Adsum_05 said:So, by your reasoning here, abortion should be allowed through the ninth month of the pregnancy. The child is still "inside the woman's body" until moments before birth.
That's how Partial Birth Abortion is defended - so long as the baby's head is still inside the woman's body, it can be aborted.
If men were able to become pregnant, I am sure that many men would work to make abortion legal. But those same men are currently protesting on the pro-abortion side for women!
Men who fight for abortion today would fight for abortion if they were able to become pregnant; men who fight for the babies' lives today would fight for the babies' lives if they were able to become pregnant.
Abortion is a great deal for secular men today! It means that they can have sex with lots of women without needing to necessarily care about them or worry about being held accountable. I know, I was there.
And they couldn't continue that same lifestyle, by using condoms? It is much cheaper to buy condomes than pay for abortions.Domi_Adsum_05 said:Abortion is a great deal for secular men today! It means that they can have sex with lots of women without needing to necessarily care about them or worry about being held accountable. I know, I was there.
Neverstop said:The reason why abortion would be a non-issue if men could get pregnant is because of the power structure. There is no great pornography debate because those in power, the men, enjoy it.
Domi_Adsum_05 said:I have to disagree. There is a massive national debate on pornography happening.
But whenever anyone tries to restrict it in any way, the ACLU has a hissy-fit over the pornographer's First Amendment rights.
JustOneWay said:And they couldn't continue that same lifestyle, by using condoms? It is much cheaper to buy condomes than pay for abortions.
JustOneWay said:Those type of men have been around for ages, and I would like to see if you can provide any statistics that abortions have contributed to a rise (not a physical rise of course) in men "sleeping around"
so you stopped using condoms and used abortion as your preferred method of contraception?Domi_Adsum_05 said:I have had condoms tear. (and yes, I was using them properly)
No, I asked you to provide some statistics, or a study or two that supports your claim that abortion has enabled men to not necessarily care about women or worry about being held accountable, and prove your claim that promiscuity has increased primarily due to abortion.Are you seriously going to argue that sexual activity and promiscuity are not up tremendously since Roe v. Wade was decided? Seriously?
JustOneWay said:so you stopped using condoms and used abortion as your preferred method of contraception?
JustOneWay said:No, I asked you to provide some statistics, or a study or two that supports your claim that abortion has enabled men to not necessarily care about women or worry about being held accountable, and prove your claim that promiscuity has increased primarily due to abortion.
If you provide worthy data I will have no reason to argue. If you cant, you can, of course just add a disclaimer that this is your opinion and that will be good enough for me.
Evidence? (per your thesis, the total # of, say, unmarried pregnancies should've increased post-Roe)Meaning that people are willing to take more risks than when pregnancy was a greater possibility and folks weren't allowed to down to the abortion mill to get their wombs scraped clean of the "products of conception."
burrow_owl said:Evidence? (per your thesis, the total # of, say, unmarried pregnancies should've increased post-Roe)
Domi_Adsum_05 said:So you're arguing that they haven't?
nvxplorer said:As a matter of biology, before a certain point of development, the zygote/embryo/fetus is fully dependent on the mothers body. Much like your finger will die if amputated, the unborn at this stage of development will die as well. This is why it can be viewed as a potential human. The definition of when the unborn become fully human is difficult to pin down. It is basically a matter of opinion. Genetic uniqueness is one argument, but identical twins are genetically identical but still individuals. At the earliest stages, an embryo is nothing more than a clump of cells. No heart, no brain, no organs at all. These cells will further divide and become a human body. This is the definition of potentiality. You may hold to your opinion that such potentiality is a person, and should be legally treated as such, but it is still a matter of potential.
The life support argument is a non sequitur. If life support required the commission of ones bodily functions, then it would be valid.
Your response " I have had condoms tear. (and yes, I was using them properly)" gave just enough information for me to assume that you could not trust condoms because you have had some tear. You don't have to spell things out, just present your thoughts clearer and we can avoid this type of confusion.Domi_Adsum_05 said:Wow, I really have to spell things out for some of you folks.
No, you stated " Abortion is a great deal for secular men today! It means that they can have sex with lots of women without needing to necessarily care about them or worry about being held accountable. I know, I was there."I have never argued that abortion on demand is the sole cause of anything except the 1.4 million it kills in the U.S. every year.
Can you think of any other reasons, besides just abortion, that has contributed to this country's narcissistic culture?Abortion on demand is both a result of and a cause of the narcissistic culture in which we live today. And which has gone from being a childish, irresponsible, and self-centered culture in the past to the Culture of Death we see today.
lets not talk about slavery devaluing any human life.The devaluing of human life in the West today began tentatively with Roe v. Wade, under the auspices of a party lifestyle which had no consequences.
Domi_Adsum_05 said:So, by your reasoning here, abortion should be allowed through the ninth month of the pregnancy. The child is still "inside the woman's body" until moments before birth.
That's how Partial Birth Abortion is defended - so long as the baby's head is still inside the woman's body, it can be aborted.
If men were able to become pregnant, I am sure that many men would work to make abortion legal. But those same men are currently protesting on the pro-abortion side for women!
Men who fight for abortion today would fight for abortion if they were able to become pregnant; men who fight for the babies' lives today would fight for the babies' lives if they were able to become pregnant.
Abortion is a great deal for secular men today! It means that they can have sex with lots of women without needing to necessarily care about them or worry about being held accountable. I know, I was there.
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