Right & wrong

Rae · Sep 21, 2004

your instincts would be for your survival, no holds barred.

Funny, most animals with instincts also have the instinct to care for each other. Ever owned a dog? This is silly. Human instincts are to protect their own. Even my birds, who have almost nothing but instinct to go on, care for me. They shriek for me when I'm not in the room. My budgie always makes the kissing noise I taught him when I'm near because that's how he understands to interact with me.

Point me to any animal whose instincts tell it to kill all others around it and you might have a point. Unfortunately, I don't believe such a creature exists, and I don't believe that any such ever has existed.

True_KeN · Sep 21, 2004

While this is of course one persons opinion, I believe much of our morality stems from our ability to reason. If you believe that nudism is morally wrong, it is most likely because your reasoning tells you so. Much of our reasoning abilities are evolutionary and have stemmed a field of study called "Cognitive Evolution." It seems likely that reasoning skills that were adaptively advantageous would have been selected as opposed to skills that were disadvantageous. In the words of W.V.O. Quine, "creatures inveterately wrong in their inductions have a pathetic but praise-worthy tendency to die before reproducing their kind."

Phred · Sep 21, 2004

Carico said:
When looking at all the thread topics I am simply amazed at how many people do not know right from wrong. Questions about whether homosexuality is right or wrong, nudism, what truth is, etc. This is the state of the human condition; not knowing what right and wrong are but sure being convinced of their OPINIONS of right and wrong! a HUGE contradiction! That's one reason why there's a God! But He is usually ignored in favor of a person's opinion, even though that person has demonstrated that he doesn't have the answers! It's called pride. This is one example of the proud being humbled. But nevertheless, people go on looking for answers from other people who don't know the answers. There's that pride again. No wonder your guys' questions never stop. You're asking the wrong sources!

So instead of carefully considering my morality, what I feel is right and wrong, the instances that might alter such belief... I should simply accept someone else's canned version? Yours perhaps since you speak on behalf of a deity?

Bah... this kinda thinly veiled threat I can live without.

Nietzsche · Sep 21, 2004

Carico said:
When looking at all the thread topics I am simply amazed at how many people do not know right from wrong. Questions about whether homosexuality is right or wrong, nudism, what truth is, etc. This is the state of the human condition; not knowing what right and wrong are but sure being convinced of their OPINIONS of right and wrong! a HUGE contradiction! That's one reason why there's a God! But He is usually ignored in favor of a person's opinion, even though that person has demonstrated that he doesn't have the answers! It's called pride. This is one example of the proud being humbled. But nevertheless, people go on looking for answers from other people who don't know the answers. There's that pride again. No wonder your guys' questions never stop. You're asking the wrong sources!

......WOW.......................

Holy Heretic · Sep 21, 2004

Carico, I wonder, whom do you ask???
Does the voice of the Creator just boom from the heavans and give you the answerd directly??? Because from the sounds of things, this must be how you get answers, in which case you'd be unlike anyone else whom exists.

otherwise, you must get your answers from the bible, and the modern intpretation of scripture, or your own intpretation of these books written by men, and that means your intrpretation is filtered through your own biases, making you JUST LIKE THE REST OF US!!!

peace

Carico · Sep 21, 2004

Phred said:
So instead of carefully considering my morality, what I feel is right and wrong, the instances that might alter such belief... I should simply accept someone else's canned version? Yours perhaps since you speak on behalf of a deity?

Bah... this kinda thinly veiled threat I can live without.

So are you saying that you think the Ten Commandments are wrong? They certainly go against human nature. People argue with them everyday. please show us how they are wrong. Hitler also went by his own morals. If you think you know better about heaven and hell than Jesus does, then you can go ahead and gamble your soul that you're right. It seems like a heavy price to pay to try to prove him wrong, but you either must not value your soul very much or you're convinced of your omniscience. You certainly haven't shown the world your authority to know about heaven and hell even though you think you have.

markie · Sep 21, 2004

Holy Heretic said:
Carico;
as a deist, I beleive that the Creator{the one whom you would use the patriarchal term "god" for} gave us a wonderful gift called "reason". It also gave us nature and natural law.
if one looks over history, one will find that before judaism and christianity and after as well, there have always been certain moral or ethical codes that civilized people have followed.
the ideas of "do unto others as you would have them do unto you" and "love thy neighbor" which pre-existed the judeo-christian concepts of morality and god{in fact some of the quotes usaully attrbuted to jesus about these things actually pre-existed before he even said them-allmost word for word, which says that Jesus merely musta read and travelled during all those years f his life that are unnacounted for in the gospels and picked up ideas from other beliefs and cultures} .
nonrevealed religonists usaully sum up morality{though because of it's associatio w/prejudices and elitist revealed religons, they often avoid the term 'morality'-I for one am comfortable w/it}this way, and this is how I sum up morality;
I do not harm becasue I do not wish to be harmed
I love because I wish to be loved
I do not exploit, because I do not wish t be exploited.

Now regarding thing ssuch as homosexuality, they harm no one, they do not exploit anyone, and they are seeking to love and be loved.
Therefore I conclude given that great gift of the creators called "reason" that it is therefore not wrong! Same goes for nudity{nudists have been less sexually pervrted and harmful and exploitive than those afraid of and whom demonize the nude body as ungodly and therfore try to repress t, and peek more curiosity which demands to be satified by any means nessacery}. If we all bean walking around nude today, w/in no time we would be use to the nude body and we would no more lust after a nude body than we do a clothed one.

It's pretty simple.

Now, if no one ever asked questions about what morality is, then we would not have evolved to the ideas of democracy based on eqaulity for all{rather than theocracy based on some holy book written 1000's of years ago by biased MALES} and the ideas of toelrance that we have. You may not agree w/my morality in all respects, but you as a modern christian would not try to deny me my right to believe as I wish-why? Because you are influenced more than you are willing to admit by the deistic morals of the founding fathers of the U.S. and the moral relativity which has brought us to such a place of democracy and equality and tolerance. Yes-we have a ways to go yet, but... we are progressing faster because of these questions beeing asked and because of the freethought relativity, faster than we ever did when we had our morals dictated by old,rusty revealed holy books of variuos revealed religons.
The peacef loving and tolerance lovng fruits of this relativity anf freethinking speaks for itself.
The elitist,prejudiced, fear and guilt induced, patriarchal fruits which brought forth fruits of prejudcie,war and death throughout history-speaks for what worth the morals of revealed religon has!
And if you were not following the modern relativistic thinking of of the world[or the western cultures anyways] than you would be following your bible, and you would be more prejudiced and you'd be killing as the o.t. law says to do and jesus commanded obedience to every jot anf tittle{letter} of the o.t. law in Matthew 5:7-19, thank deity that you are not!

peace

Till all be fulfilled. Jesus Christ was the fulfilling of that law. I don't think anybody ever lived up to the law. The law wasn't just a system of rules, it was to show that no man was good enough to live up to gods standards.

Philosoft · Sep 22, 2004

Carico said:
So are you saying that you think the Ten Commandments are wrong?

Some are, some are not.

They certainly go against human nature.

Which ones?

People argue with them everyday. please show us how they are wrong. Hitler also went by his own morals. If you think you know better about heaven and hell than Jesus does, then you can go ahead and gamble your soul that you're right.

When did Jesus say to follow the Ten Commandments?

It seems like a heavy price to pay to try to prove him wrong, but you either must not value your soul very much or you're convinced of your omniscience. You certainly haven't shown the world your authority to know about heaven and hell even though you think you have.

Perhaps not, but all you've done is tell us repeatedly that you have this knowledge. You haven't explained why we should believe you.

Carico · Sep 22, 2004

So which of the Ten Commandments are wrong, and according to whom, Philosoft? Are you the judge and jury of morality?

Not lying sure goes aganist human nature. People lie to themselves everyday, thinking they are omnipotent enough to believe they know better than God does, or that there is no hell, or that they don't sin. Adultery sure goes against human nature. Not only do people do it, they condone it! People justify murder all the time. Jesus also said that when we are angry in our hearts, we are subject to judgment. people get angry many times a day! And the firts 2 commanmends ESPECIALLY go against human nature! people believe their own laws are right and God's are wrong. That is what leads them to discard the REST of the Commandments and make up their own. Hitler sure did that! And according to you, he is right because you believe that if man thinks he is moral then that makes him moral. Not only are you deceiving yourself, but you can then condone any atrocity if a man believes he is right. VERY scary indeed.

Slayer, instead of attacking God, you would fare much better by pointing out where He is wrong. If you can't prove he is wrong, then your attack is COMPELETLY unwarranted. A rational rebuttal should stand on its own merit.

slayer-2004 · Sep 22, 2004

Slayer, instead of attacking God, you would fare much better by pointing out where He is wrong. If you can't prove he is wrong, then your attack is COMPELETLY unwarranted. A rational rebuttal should stand on its own merit.

Oh but I have.... many times over . Just click on my name and "find all posts by member" . You know very well I have provided logic against the christian god , and I know very well that you have always responded with your wonderfull standard "HOW DARE YOU QUESTION GOD !!!!" circular response .

Holy Heretic · Sep 22, 2004

markie said:
Till all be fulfilled. Jesus Christ was the fulfilling of that law. I don't think anybody ever lived up to the law. The law wasn't just a system of rules, it was to show that no man was good enough to live up to gods standards.

If no MAN was good enogh than biblegod would not have given those laws and commanded the Israelites to obey them to the full, and Jesus would never have told his followers to obey every jiot and tottle thereof-futhermore he would not have given this command "BE ye perfect as your heavanly father IS perfect"-Jesus seems to have thought that a person could be perfect enough to be as perfect as god and live the law fully.

Try again friend.

Holy Heretic · Sep 22, 2004

Carico said:
So which of the Ten Commandments are wrong, and according to whom, Philosoft? Are you the judge and jury of morality?

Not lying sure goes aganist human nature. People lie to themselves everyday, thinking they are omnipotent enough to believe they know better than God does, or that there is no hell, or that they don't sin. Adultery sure goes against human nature. Not only do people do it, they condone it! People justify murder all the time. Jesus also said that when we are angry in our hearts, we are subject to judgment. people get angry many times a day! And the firts 2 commanmends ESPECIALLY go against human nature! people believe their own laws are right and God's are wrong. That is what leads them to discard the REST of the Commandments and make up their own. Hitler sure did that! And according to you, he is right because you believe that if man thinks he is moral then that makes him moral. Not only are you deceiving yourself, but you can then condone any atrocity if a man believes he is right. VERY scary indeed.

Slayer, instead of attacking God, you would fare much better by pointing out where He is wrong. If you can't prove he is wrong, then your attack is COMPELETLY unwarranted. A rational rebuttal should stand on its own merit.

What is it w/you and Hitler?
Besides, Hitler was a christian, and hid followers believed him sent by Christ.
So, Hitler followed the christian morality, allbeit a rascist version of it. But then the Israelites of the Old testament were also recial supremacists and slaughtered non-israelites in the name of Jehovah. And the cruisaders were racists,etc, list goes one and on.

Who's attacking "god" carico, I know Iagre w/the things SLAYER is saying, and I'm also NO attacking "god"[the creator/deity}. It's YOUR god we are attacking, becasue he is a evil,viloent,racist,prejudiced,elitist hypocrite{or he would be id he actually existed}.
YOUR god in NOT god!!!

As far as the ten commandments goes, most of them are 'universal laws/priniples' that people of most faiths and non-faiths and most cultures have always followed and beleived, because they are Universally written upon opur "reason" by the Universal unknown creators design of the universe.
The only ones that we would really disagree witgh are the ones thats et the judeo-christian godfrom up as the only god{the first two commandments; the one about keeping the jewish sabbath-even christians don't do this, etc}

May the truth prevail

Iconoclastithon

Phred · Sep 22, 2004

Carico said:
So are you saying that you think the Ten Commandments are wrong? They certainly go against human nature. People argue with them everyday. please show us how they are wrong.

Which ten commandments? You'd best be clear about that before we begin to discuss them. Protestant? Catholic? Hebrew? Which Bible version? You can't just be schizophrenic about this, you need to specify. Otherwise your "ten commandments" are simply ten things you've interpreted for me. And that's exactly what you're telling me is wrong.

But, since you've asked... Thou shalt not kill. Tell me, about 12,000 Iraqis have died recently. Their deaths are called "collateral damage"... but they're dead all the same. They were killed by the United States. I've been told that their deaths are the inevitable outcome of war. They're still dead and the commandment is specific. So now it's Thou shalt not kill UNLESS...

If you try to say that it should read, Thou shalt not murder, then you're not going by the ten commandments, you're going by the interpretation you choose to apply at this time. Which means YOU have YOUR OWN MORALITY.

Hitler also went by his own morals.

So do you. As in the example just above. Are you about to murder six million innocent people? Shall we examine all the Christians over the years who proclaimed their holiness and their willingness to follow God while they stomp all over the ten commandments? Crusades, inqusitions... does the name Jim Bakker ring a bell?

If you think you know better about heaven and hell than Jesus does, then you can go ahead and gamble your soul that you're right. It seems like a heavy price to pay to try to prove him wrong, but you either must not value your soul very much or you're convinced of your omniscience. You certainly haven't shown the world your authority to know about heaven and hell even though you think you have.

Don't know what Jesus did or did not know. Neither do you. You're not God, although you try to play one on TV. The arrogance of those who try to force God's word on the rest of us! From comparisons to Hitler to threats on my soul... quite the performance.

That's a mighty large beam in your eye... you should seek help to remove it.

.

Fuzzy · Sep 22, 2004

Phred said:
From comparisons to Hitler to threats on my soul... quite the performance.

It's a funny little world. "Hitler" comparisons are being used here, and at a local (to me) UU church that's pretty pagan heavy, there was a politcal discussion that went downhill when "Bush=Hitler" was thrown out. The silence was deafening when it was pointed out that, if George W. Bush was indeed
Hitler, then the critic would not actually be alive to make the criticism, since
by now, W would have begun his efforts to purge the nation of undesirables.

Hitler was so iconic in his accomplishments (not saying good or bad, just BIG)
that everyone seems to know who he is. We can call someone "Hitler" or
"Nazi," and the word carries a very heavy weight with it. However, I think
we've become too casual with that word. As Phred pointed out, being
"Hitler" implies genocidal ambitions. That's a bit stronger than someone who
just disagrees with you over the internet. And for the record, Hitler's
genocidal ambitions were bad. But his landscape paintings were pretty good.

Carico · Sep 22, 2004

Boy, you guys are desperate! The lengths you'll go to go against God is quite bizarre. BUT, you have to try to justify your beliefs in some way, even if they are erroneous. Which Ten Commandments? They are the same in EVERY Christian bible. I suggest you read them so you know what you are arguing against. You can't say they're wrong until you know what they are in the first place!

As far as Iraqui's dying, if we had left Saddam in power, thousands of iraqui's would have died at his hand and THEN years later we would have had to stop him anway! That would have magnified the deaths ENORMOUSLY. He has shown us ever since he's in power that he cannot be negotiated with. For someone who claims to care about the lives of the Iraqui's you sure are willing to have more of them die than are necessary!

Jesus NEVER condones killing. Those who kill in His name are NOT following Christ. it isn't Jesus's FOLLOWERS that we worship, it's His ideals. Jesus said there will be MANY who claim to follow him but are actually wolves in sheep's clothing. Unfortunately, you think we should worship Christians instead of Christ. You're still trying to worship human beings as gods instead of God alone.

Hitler was a Christian? This is the most desperate statement of all. You first have to know Christ's words before you claim that Hitler followed Him. Hitler contradicted almost all of them, including worhsipping other people (such as himself as the messiah)in place of Christ. Your arguments are as off-base as arguing that the world is flat. Can't you do better than this? Your arguments come from fantasy rather than history.

CEV · Sep 22, 2004

newlamb said:
I can't tell you how much easier life is when you rely on God's definitions of right and wrong. I no longer even have to think about it - if God said something's wrong, that's it. No argument!

That explains a lot.

Carico · Sep 22, 2004

You are wise, newlamb. Those who think they know better than Christ will have a rude awakening one day.

The Bellman · Sep 22, 2004

Unfortunately, the idea of "if god said it's wrong, that's it...it's wrong" simply doesn't work. The reason is because nobody knows what god said or wants...in the end everybody has to rely on their own, fallible human interpretation of what god wants or doesn't want. That's the reason why Christians so often disagree about what is right and wrong...because they can't agree about what god wants.

If a god exists, it may well be the case that there are things he views as wrong, and things he views as right...but given our present state of communication with him, we can never know just what those things are.

CaDan · Sep 22, 2004

Carico said:
So are you saying that you think the Ten Commandments are wrong? They certainly go against human nature. People argue with them everyday. please show us how they are wrong. Hitler also went by his own morals. If you think you know better about heaven and hell than Jesus does, then you can go ahead and gamble your soul that you're right. It seems like a heavy price to pay to try to prove him wrong, but you either must not value your soul very much or you're convinced of your omniscience. You certainly haven't shown the world your authority to know about heaven and hell even though you think you have.

I invoke Godwin's Law. This thread has now reached the end of its useful life.

The Bellman · Sep 22, 2004

newlamb said:
But your instincts would be for your survival, no holds barred. That does not bode well for the society around you.

This is manifestly false. Our instincts are for a number of things, including our survival. That's how they evolved. Check out any recent book on evolutionary theory to find out how we evolved altruism. Our instincts, fortyunately, bode very well for the society around us.

We hope the site problems here are now solved, however, if you still have any issues, please start a ticket in Contact Us

Right & wrong

Pro-Marriage. All marriage.

True_KeN

Guest

Junior Mint

Active Member

Active Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Orthogonal, Tangential, Tenuously Related

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Active Member

Active Member

Junior Mint

One by Four by Nine

Well-Known Member

Active Member

Well-Known Member

The Bellman

Guest

I remember orange CF

The Bellman

Guest

Similar threads

Privacy & Transparency

Privacy & Transparency