Rich Mullins

xtxArchxAngelxtx said:

Caedomns Call is another group...

I can't help but to look at most (about 90%) of CCM bands and think they are being self involved. That is just my own thoughts though.

Click to expand...

Well, I don't know where you're getting your info, but your more than welcome to your own opinion!

bleechers

you said of Rich Mullins: "he talked about our works being "salvific". What were his exact words?

I know he leaned toward Catholicism - it's fairly obvious in his music.

holyrokker said:

bleechers

you said of Rich Mullins: "he talked about our works being "salvific". What were his exact words?

I know he leaned toward Catholicism - it's fairly obvious in his music.

Click to expand...

"And folks, sometimes we think that we're saved because of how good we are, or because of how smart we are, or how clever we are, or how much we give. All those things are in a sense salvific. God does save us through our own work. If you don't believe me, then become a Lutheran and cut James out of your Bible. But, we're mostly saved, not because of what we do, but because of what Christ did. Had Jesus not died, all the water in the world wouldn't wash away your sins. Had Jesus not taken away our sins, all the prayers in the world that we could pray would never reach heaven. Had Jesus not come down as God and become flesh, there is no way that you and I could become holy."

====

And she said, "Well, I don't care when you were baptized. I want to know when you became a Christian." I said, "Lady, when I was baptized my sins were taken away and I was given the Holy Spirit. That's an awful lot like becoming a Christian to me."

Then she said, "What I really want to know is when you were born again."

I said, "Lady, which time?!"

====

[shudder]

yeah thats not good...

bleechers said:

"And folks, sometimes we think that we're saved because of how good we are, or because of how smart we are, or how clever we are, or how much we give. All those things are in a sense salvific. God does save us through our own work. If you don't believe me, then become a Lutheran and cut James out of your Bible. But, we're mostly saved, not because of what we do, but because of what Christ did. Had Jesus not died, all the water in the world wouldn't wash away your sins. Had Jesus not taken away our sins, all the prayers in the world that we could pray would never reach heaven. Had Jesus not come down as God and become flesh, there is no way that you and I could become holy."

====

And she said, "Well, I don't care when you were baptized. I want to know when you became a Christian." I said, "Lady, when I was baptized my sins were taken away and I was given the Holy Spirit. That's an awful lot like becoming a Christian to me."

Then she said, "What I really want to know is when you were born again."

I said, "Lady, which time?!"

====

[shudder]

Click to expand...

Umm, may I ask what is scripturally wrong with either of these quotes?

Like the first quote says, James 2:14 says What does it profit if a man says he has faith, and has not works - can his faith save him? v17 even so faith, if it has not works, is dead. v18 ... show me your faith without works, and I will show you my faith by my works.

So when the Bible says that we are saved by faith, it also says works proves faith, therefore we are saved by faith and works, together.

And to the second quote, it reminds me of when every one asks my husband and I when did we start going out. Neither of us actually asked the other "will you be my girlfriend/boyfriend?" We started attending youth group activities together as friends and then started doing other activities together, and the romance blossumed. Then one day he took me somewhere special and asked me marry him and a couple of months later we said our vows in front of 100 people and God. We have been married for eleven years. But if we can't pin point the moment when we fell in love, does that mean that we are not in love and not married? Of course not!!!

Rich Mullins in that second quote was just saying that he could say when he publicly proclaimed Jesus as Lord of his life through baptism, and that was what mattered to him. To his comment "which time?" IMO he was just meaning that he renewed his commitment to Jesus regularly, and that is between him and Jesus.

Anyway, isn't water baptism part of being born again? In that case, what's the problem?

Workingmum said:

Umm, may I ask what is scripturally wrong with either of these quotes?

Like the first quote says, James 2:14 says What does it profit if a man says he has faith, and has not works - can his faith save him? v17 even so faith, if it has not works, is dead. v18 ... show me your faith without works, and I will show you my faith by my works.

So when the Bible says that we are saved by faith, it also says works proves faith, therefore we are saved by faith and works, together.

And to the second quote, it reminds me of when every one asks my husband and I when did we start going out. Neither of us actually asked the other "will you be my girlfriend/boyfriend?" We started attending youth group activities together as friends and then started doing other activities together, and the romance blossumed. Then one day he took me somewhere special and asked me marry him and a couple of months later we said our vows in front of 100 people and God. We have been married for eleven years. But if we can't pin point the moment when we fell in love, does that mean that we are not in love and not married? Of course not!!!

Rich Mullins in that second quote was just saying that he could say when he publicly proclaimed Jesus as Lord of his life through baptism, and that was what mattered to him. To his comment "which time?" IMO he was just meaning that he renewed his commitment to Jesus regularly, and that is between him and Jesus.

Anyway, isn't water baptism part of being born again? In that case, what's the problem?

Click to expand...

He doesn't say that works "result" from faith, he says that they are in and of themselves "salvific".

Read it again. If his statements that works PARTICIPATE in our salvation and that Christ only "MOSTLY" paid the price of redemption don't bother you... then we have no more to discuss.

Water baptism has absolutely no regenerative effect.

If somebody showed up in your pulpit teaching these doctrines, you wouldn't mind? If the guy teaching your kids in Sunday School told them that Christ "mostly" paid for their sins and that "God saves them through their works" you'd be pleased?



Would Paul ever say "Which time?" or "my commitment to Christ is a personal matter"?

bleechers said:

He doesn't say that works "result" from faith, he says that they are in and of themselves "salvific".

Click to expand...

Actually, he said that they are in a sense salvific.

Read it again. If his statements that works PARTICIPATE in our salvation and that Christ only "MOSTLY" paid the price of redemption don't bother you... then we have no more to discuss.

Water baptism has absolutely no regenerative effect.

If somebody showed up in your pulpit teaching these doctrines, you wouldn't mind? If the guy teaching your kids in Sunday School told them that Christ "mostly" paid for their sins and that "God saves them through their works" you'd be pleased?

Click to expand...

Seeing as my family and I are members of a Baptist church where these teachings are taught, no I don't mind.

Would Paul ever say "Which time?" or "my commitment to Christ is a personal matter"?

Click to expand...

Well he did say that we are all to work out our own salvation, no one can do it for us and therefore it is no one elses business.

Workingmum said:

Actually, he said that they are in a sense salvific.

Click to expand...

What's the difference? So if I said that giving money to the church is "in a sense salvific" that wouldn't bother you? If I said that cleaning a neighbors yard was "in a sense salvific" you'd be OK with that?

He clarified the statement by saying that Christ only "mostly" paid for our sins and that God "does save us through our own work". Is that what your church teaches? "Mostly"?

Seeing as my family and I are members of a Baptist church where these teachings are taught, no I don't mind.

Click to expand...

Get out and fast.

Well he did say that we are all to work out our own salvation, no one can do it for us and therefore it is no one elses business

Click to expand...

There is a HUGE leap you are making here. Paul's doctrine of working out one's salvation has nothing to do with how that salvation is attained. There is no teaching here that "God saves us through our own works". In fact, Romans 4:5 states that salvation is to him that "works NOT, but believes".

Not to mention that we are only "saved" once in our life... which it appears that he is under the umpression that he has been saved multiple times.

xtxArchxAngelxtx said:

Not to mention that we are only "saved" once in our life... which it appears that he is under the umpression that he has been saved multiple times.

Click to expand...

Saved once? So if a "saved' person falls away from the Lord and no longer behaves like a Christian (maybe commits murder and doesn't repent) and loses their personal relationship with God, they are still saved? Or they will never get the chance to be saved again? And what does "saved" mean?

As Christians, we are to have a personal relationship with God, which like all relationships, is sometimes strong and other times weak, like if we have backsliden. Having been a Christian for 22 years, I know there are times when I have found it necessary to recommit my life to the Lord because I had taken back control of it.

Workingmum said:

Saved once? So if a "saved' person falls away from the Lord and no longer behaves like a Christian (maybe commits murder and doesn't repent) and loses their personal relationship with God, they are still saved? Or they will never get the chance to be saved again? And what does "saved" mean?

As Christians, we are to have a personal relationship with God, which like all relationships, is sometimes strong and other times weak, like if we have backsliden. Having been a Christian for 22 years, I know there are times when I have found it necessary to recommit my life to the Lord because I had taken back control of it.

Click to expand...

Yes, he still gets to heaven, unless his acceptance of Christ into his heart was unsincere.

bleechers said:

What's the difference? So if I said that giving money to the church is "in a sense salvific" that wouldn't bother you? If I said that cleaning a neighbors yard was "in a sense salvific" you'd be OK with that?

He clarified the statement by saying that Christ only "mostly" paid for our sins and that God "does save us through our own work". Is that what your church teaches? "Mostly"?

Click to expand...

Works are in a sense salvific because of the scriptures I quoted from James earlier. Faith without works is dead and can't save anyone - James 2:14 What does it profit if a man says he has faith and has not works, can his faith save him?

Jesus died to save us, but we are not saved unless we show our faith by our works - James 2:18 I will show you my faith by my works.

xtxArchxAngelxtx said:

Yes, he still gets to heaven, unless his acceptance of Christ into his heart was unsincere.

Click to expand...

Your statement makes me think of the following scriptures:

Matthew 25:31-46 When the Son of Man comes in His glory ... all the nations will be gathered before him and he will separate people one from another ... Then the king will say to those at his right hand, "come you that are blessed by my father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you ... for I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink ..." Then the righteous will answer him "Lord when was it that we saw you hungry ..." And the King will answer them, "truly I tell you ,just as you did it to one of the least of these who are members of my family, you did it to me." Then he will say to those at his left hand, "you that are accursed, depart from me into the external fire prepared for the devil and his angels, for I was hungry ..." Then they also will answer, "Lord when was it that we saw you hungry..." Then he will answer them, "truly I tell you just as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me." And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.

Matthew 7:21-23 Not everyone who says to me "Lord, Lord" will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven. On that day many will say to me "Lord, Lord did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name and do many deeds of power in your name." Then I will declare to them, "I never knew you, go away from me you evil-doers."

In the first scripture, Jesus himself says that if we do not do things (feed the poor, visit those in prison - works) we will go to external punishment. In the second He tells of Christians doing miracles in His Name (they must have had His Power in them to perform the miracles at some stage, ie. been saved) and yet because they did not DO the will of the Father (do - verb - doing word - do works) He will send them away from Him.

I have backed my beliefs up with scriptures - please show me where you get your beliefs from in the scriptures.

Workingmum said:

Matthew 7:21-23 Not everyone who says to me "Lord, Lord" will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven. On that day many will say to me "Lord, Lord did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name and do many deeds of power in your name." Then I will declare to them, "I never knew you, go away from me you evil-doers."

In the first scripture, Jesus himself says that if we do not do things (feed the poor, visit those in prison - works) we will go to external punishment. In the second He tells of Christians doing miracles in His Name (they must have had His Power in them to perform the miracles at some stage, ie. been saved) and yet because they did not DO the will of the Father (do - verb - doing word - do works) He will send them away from Him.

Click to expand...

I realize this wasn't directed at me, but hopefully no one will mind if I toss in my $0.10 here...

You are assuming that the miracles were genuine for one(they may not have been). And for two, you are assuming the power given to these people to do these miracles must have been given by God(power is given by both God and Satan).

Using that perticular section of Scripture provides you with a very weak(and wobbly) base for what you are suggesting.

osm

Workingmum said:

Your statement makes me think of the following scriptures:

Matthew 25:31-46 When the Son of Man comes in His glory ... all the nations will be gathered before him and he will separate people one from another ... Then the king will say to those at his right hand, "come you that are blessed by my father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you ... for I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink ..." Then the righteous will answer him "Lord when was it that we saw you hungry ..." And the King will answer them, "truly I tell you ,just as you did it to one of the least of these who are members of my family, you did it to me." Then he will say to those at his left hand, "you that are accursed, depart from me into the external fire prepared for the devil and his angels, for I was hungry ..." Then they also will answer, "Lord when was it that we saw you hungry..." Then he will answer them, "truly I tell you just as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me." And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.

Matthew 7:21-23 Not everyone who says to me "Lord, Lord" will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven. On that day many will say to me "Lord, Lord did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name and do many deeds of power in your name." Then I will declare to them, "I never knew you, go away from me you evil-doers."

In the first scripture, Jesus himself says that if we do not do things (feed the poor, visit those in prison - works) we will go to external punishment. In the second He tells of Christians doing miracles in His Name (they must have had His Power in them to perform the miracles at some stage, ie. been saved) and yet because they did not DO the will of the Father (do - verb - doing word - do works) He will send them away from Him.

I have backed my beliefs up with scriptures - please show me where you get your beliefs from in the scriptures.

Click to expand...

The first scripture: Matthew 25:31-46
Well first off, I absolutly LOVE how you took out bits and pieces of each of that scripture. Like the ending of 32 and all of verse 33 seperating the goats from the sheep... very nicely done considering thats the example of the saved and unsaved.
Also how you stated that "goats" (unsaved) didn't know they were supposed to "work" is very true, but in *verse 37-40* (which I thank you for at least mentioning it) tells that they did not even know they did works-- as if it was out of their hands.
The bible even teaches faith without works is dead because the faith we have will compell us to do righteous acts, but it is not US that does the work. Once again, the bible also tells us that "we will know our brethern by their fruit" But once again, it is the works that saves us, but rather the faith.
Yes, people will still sin, however sin is sin and is not worth more than another.

The second scripture: Matthew 7:21-23

You are right on the money with these verses, however, pay close attention. There are two things that Jesus has told us specifically to do: Worhsip God, and to go out and make disciples.
Look at the three things the people said they have done: Cast out demons, Prophesied, and miracles."
Yes, all three of those are very spiritual things. I see this stuff happen on televangelist shows. Is any of it doing Gods will? No, infact all three lead to pride. Another things I noticed is that God never validates thier excuses, so it's even questionable if they were true God inspired miricles. Those three are not fruits.


"Jesus himself says that if we do not do things (feed the poor, visit those in prison - works) we will go to external punishment."

Um he did? I sure don't see it. I see where those who did not do it will be thrown into eternal punishment. But I am a christian, and from what you told me, if I don't do those things I am going to hell. This is untrue. What if someone accepts Christ 2 minutes before they die?

"He tells of Christians doing miracles in His Name (they must have had His Power in them to perform the miracles at some stage, ie. been saved)"

Untrue. God uses the unsaved many times to do his will. Aside from that, it doesn't take a christian to say they do those things in Jesus' name.

Now, let me state my stance:

Romans 10:9-10
"that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you WILL be SAVED;
10
for with the heart a person beleives, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation."

Take note to verse 10: "for with the heart a person beleives resulting in righteousness"

This faith that we get gives us righteousness and can/will manifest itself if righteous works.

Verse 13

for "whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved"

Then verse 17:
"So faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ"
Christ saves, not works. The works are the affects of the salvation.

"if by grace then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works then it is no longer grace" (Rom 11:6)

Works are in a sense salvific because of the scriptures I quoted from James earlier. Faith without works is dead and can't save anyone - James 2:14 What does it profit if a man says he has faith and has not works, can his faith save him?

Jesus died to save us, but we are not saved unless we show our faith by our works - James 2:18 I will show you my faith by my works.

Click to expand...

Jesus paid the price of our sin, BUT He needs us to do a little work to really satisfy the Father?

Are you sure you're a Baptist?

Tell me, which works in James 2 should I emulate to help Jesus save me... should I commit treason, lie, or offer my son as a human sacrifice?

See James 2:10 and Romans 4:4-5 ("He who works NOT, but BELIEVES...")

Matthew 25:31-46

Click to expand...

Matthew 25 has nothing to do with salvation. That is abundantly clear in the text. First of all, He was answering a specific question, He never mentions faith, He wasn't addressing idividuals, not all men are His "brothers"... and tell me what, then, do the naked, hungry and imprisoned do to get saved? What do invalids do to get saved? What did the thief do to get saved? What did Paul do before Damascus to get saved?

For a little more detail, visit my article on Matt 25 at my web site.

"Jesus himself says that if we do not do things (feed the poor, visit those in prison - works) we will go to external punishment."

Click to expand...

So what do the people in prison do? Visit each other? Feed the rats? What do you tell someone on death row... "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved... and you have 12 hours to go visit a prisoner, feed the hungry, clothe the naked, and comfort the sick... otherwise you'll go to hell... GOOD LUCK!

How many times do I have to do this? Can I vist one prisoner one time and feed one hungry person and God is in my eternal debt to not only let me into heaven, but He now has to take care of me forever because I visited a prisoner?

How many prisoners did the thief on the cross visit? How many hungry people did he feed?

If salvation is by works, then it is of debt. If it wholly of grace, then God is not our debtor.

The second scripture: Matthew 7:21-23

Click to expand...

"Lord have we not done MANY WONDERFUL WORKS..."? You're reading pride into the text. What is missing in that condemnation is a relationship with God by FAITH.

If salvation is by works then it is no longer by grace. If it is grace then it is no longer of works. The two are mutually exclusive. (Rom 11:6). You are saying that salvation is accomplished by the blood sacrifice of Christ and one visit to a prison? You cheapen the sacrifice of Christ.

I have backed my beliefs up with scriptures - please show me where you get your beliefs from in the scriptures.

Click to expand...

A. Salvation from Genesis through Revelation.

B. From my web site as well...

Grace excludes any works of the flesh:

"if by grace then it [election v.5] is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works then it is no longer grace" (Rom 11:6)

"Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By the LAW? Of works? No, but by the law of faith. Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the LAW." (Rom 3:27-28)

"Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt. But to him who works not, but believes on him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness." (Rom 4:4-5).

"for if righteousness comes by the LAW, then Christ died in vain." (Gal 2:21).

______________________________________________________

Grace (Salvation) is a free gift:

"For it is by grace that you are saved through faith and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works so no man can boast." (Eph 2:8-9)

"Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but by his mercy he saved us." (Titus 3:5).

"[God] hath saved us, and called us with a holy calling not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began." (2 Tim 1:9)

______________________________________________________

God justified us through the blood of Christ (who is God in flesh) by faith alone.

"being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God has set forth as a propitiation by his blood through faith" (Rom 3:24-25a)

"Much more then, having now been justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him." (Rom 5:9)

"Therefore, having been justified by faith we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ through whom we have access by faith into this grace by which we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God." (Rom 5:1-2)

"God was in Christ reconciling the world to himself, not imputing their trespasses to them... For he made him who knew no sin to be sin for us that we might become the righteousness of God in him." (2 Cor 5:19,21)

"To him who loved us and washed us from our sins in his own blood, and made us kings and priests to his God and Father, to him be glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen." (Rev 1:5-6)



"Wherefore Jesus also, that he might sanctify the people with his own blood, suffered without the gate. Let us go forth therefore unto him without the camp, bearing his reproach. " (Hebrews 13:12-13)

"And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;" (Rev 5:9)

"Giving thanks unto the Father… who hath delivered us from the power of darkness and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son. In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins." (Col 1:12-14)

"In Him we have redemption, through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace." (Eph 1:7)

"For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God…" (1 Peter 3:18)

"Ho, every one that thirsteth, come ye to the waters, and he that hath no money; come ye, buy and eat; yea come , buy wine and milk without money and without price." (Is 55:1)

"And by him [Christ] all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the LAW of Moses." (Acts 13:39)

"the Holy Spirit has made you elders to shepherd the church of God which he purchased with his own blood." (Acts 20:28)

______________________________________________________

There is no mixture of LAW and grace for salvation:

"You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by LAW; you have fallen from grace." (Gal 5:4)

"For if those who are of the LAW are heirs, faith is made void and the promise of no effect, because the LAW brings about wrath... therefore it is of faith that it might be according to grace..." (Rom 4:14-16a)

"Therefore we conclude that a man is justified apart from the deeds of the LAW." (Rom 3:28; cp 4:4-6).

"if by grace then it [election v.5] is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works then it is no longer grace" (Rom 11:6)

"If anyone else thinks he may have confidence in the flesh, I more so... concerning the LAW, a Pharisee;... concerning the righteousness which is in the LAW, blameless... [That I might] be found in him, not having my own righteousness which is from the LAW, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith" (Philippians 3:4,5b,6b,9)



"He takes away the first that he might establish the second. By that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all... For by one offering he has perfected forever those who are being sanctified" (Heb 10:9b-10,14; cp. Heb 1:3)

"Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures... For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive." (1 Cor 15:1-4,22)

"Israel, which followed after the LAW of righteousness has not attained to the LAW of righteousness. Why? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were, by the works of the LAW. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone. As it is written: Behold I lay in Zion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed." (Rom 9:31-33)

______________________________________________________

Jesus promised eternal life by faith:

"Most assuredly I say to you, he who hears my word and believes in him who sent me has everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation, but has passed from death unto life." (John 5:24)

"For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son that whosoever believes in him should not perish but have everlasting life... He who believes is not condemned; but he who believes not is condemned already..." (John 3:16,18a)

"They said to him 'What shall we do to work the works of God?' Jesus answered and said unto them, 'This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he sent.' " (John 6:28-29)

"Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection and the life; he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live; and whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die." (John 11:25 , 26)

"he who comes to me, I will in no wise cast out" (John 6:37b)

"I am the door. If anyone enters by me he will be saved" (John 10:9)

______________________________________________________

John tells us that we can know that we have eternal life:

"These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life" (1 John 5:13)

"He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life." (John 3:36a)

______________________________________________________

Why would anybody trade Christ and grace for LAW, knowing that LAW only condemns and that LAW excludes grace?:

"Tell me, you who desire to be under LAW, do you not hear the LAW?... Cast out the bondwoman and her son for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman." (Gal 4:21,30)

"This only I want to learn from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the LAW or by the hearing of faith? Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit are you now being made perfect by the flesh?" (Gal 3:2-3)

"For as many as are of the works of the LAW are under the curse; for it is written, Cursed is he who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the LAW, to do them. But that no one is justified by the LAW in the sight of God is evident for the just shall live by faith." (Gal 3:10-11)

"For whoever shall keep the whole LAW and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all." (James 2:10)

thanks, bleechers.

And besides all that Bleechers said, what could anyone actually DO for God? The answer is NOTHING. He is all, has all, can do all (sorry, not biblical--just my words).
Someone tell me--what could you actually do for God that He can't do himself?

CMmom said:

And besides all that Bleechers said, what could anyone actually DO for God? The answer is NOTHING. He is all, has all, can do all (sorry, not biblical--just my words).
Someone tell me--what could you actually do for God that He can't do himself?

Click to expand...

Worship....


He can't worship himself, love himself. He is seeking love from us because worshiping himself is basicly evil.

xtxArchxAngelxtx said:

Worship....


He can't worship himself, love himself. He is seeking love from us because worshiping himself is basicly evil.

Click to expand...

True, but He doesn't need worship. He needs nothing from man. The Trinity is unique in that it allows God to be one, while still being able to love. The Father loves the Son and the Son loves the Father.

And I believe CMom's point was that there is nothing that God would need in addition to the perfect sacrifice of Christ to be able to justify the ungodly. He is in want of nothing.

God is worthy of worship, but He was perfectly fine in eternity past without the worship of man through perfect fellowship between the Father, the Son and the Spirit.

Good reasoning, though.