Rich Mullins

kajun · Sep 28, 2004

What do you think about the music of Rich Mullins?

bleechers · Sep 29, 2004

He spent his last couple of years trashing Evangelicals, denying the new birth, and teaching that works are "salvific".

I don't have much use for Mr. Mullins.

something from the fridge · Sep 29, 2004

bleechers said:
He spent his last couple of years trashing Evangelicals, denying the new birth, and teaching that works are "salvific".

I don't have much use for Mr. Mullins.

care to elaborate?

bleechers · Sep 30, 2004

something from the fridge said:
care to elaborate?

Only if you can promise me that no pitchforks or torches will result.

something from the fridge · Oct 1, 2004

bleechers said:
Only if you can promise me that no pitchforks or torches will result.

depends

bleechers · Oct 1, 2004

OK... In sum:

Rich did a few interviews with CCM Mag, Lighthouse Mag and similar in which he kept referring to Evangelicals in the third person ("those Evangelcals" etc.). In those articles, he spoke in mocking terms about the shallowness of the Evangelical gospel and its lack of spirituality.

In his last performance (available on video) he talked about our works being "salvific". In that same video he mocked the idea of a one-time, born-again experience. He recounted how a woman had recently asked him when he was born-again, to which Rich mockingly replied "Lady, which time?". He also makes a few other questionable statements in regard to the gospel of grace during the show.

Rich's organization (The Kid Brothers of Saint Frank) as well as his last couple of projects contains ideas that reflect Rich's belief that our works participate in our salvation and that Evangelicalism is shallow.

something from the fridge · Oct 5, 2004

ok, next question

what is an evangelical?

bleechers · Oct 5, 2004

something from the fridge said:
ok, next question

what is an evangelical?

Rich's definition would be the same as anyone's. An Evangelical believer is one who embraces the doctrine of salvation by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone. He mocked the idea of being "born again" as a one-time experience.

He rejected that as simplistic and in error. He embraced ritual and a "faith plus works" (salvific) theology. He was attracted to the monastic life and to the "spirituality" of sacramentalism.

Most of his fans ignorantly poured money into his coffers and still support his music to this day.

tinkerbell · Oct 5, 2004

I really enjoy his music and get a blessing from it. It is very real, and I like that.

LondonsBurning · Oct 5, 2004

Even if he lost the fire late in life, his contributions to CCM simply cannot be overlooked.

bleechers · Oct 5, 2004

LondonsBurning said:
Even if he lost the fire late in life, his contributions to CCM simply cannot be overlooked.

"Lost the fire" is one thing, denying the faith and denying the finished work of Christ is quite another.

Judas had a much longer "ministry" than the thief on the cross, but we acknowledge the true faith of the second over the false profession of the first.

tinkerbell · Oct 5, 2004

bleechers said:
He rejected that as simplistic and in error. He embraced ritual and a "faith plus works" (salvific) theology. He was attracted to the monastic life and to the "spirituality" of sacramentalism.

Paul taught faith plus works. This is what he wrote in James 2:4-6

"What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him? 15Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food. 16If one of you says to him, "Go, I wish you well; keep warm and well fed," but does nothing about his physical needs, what good is it? 17In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.
18But someone will say, You have faith; I have deeds.
Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do.
19You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe thatand shudder.
20You foolish man, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless[4] ? 21Was not our ancestor Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. 23And the scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,"[5] and he was called God's friend. 24You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone.
25In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction? 26As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead."

tinkerbell · Oct 5, 2004

bleechers said:
"Lost the fire" is one thing, denying the faith and denying the finished work of Christ is quite another.

How did he do either one of these things?

bleechers · Oct 5, 2004

By suggesting that works are "salvific" (which is very different than saying that works are the fruit of faith) is a denial of the finished work of Christ. He also said that he has been "born-again" many times and mocked the idea of the born-again experience.

If he taught this junk in the pulpit, he'd get kicked out... but since he's a musician we let his slide.

As for James 2, he is certainly not teaching that works are "salvific". They are the fruit of faith as taught by Paul in Ephesians 2:8-10, but are mutually exclusive to faith and salvation (Romans 4:4-5; 11:5-6; Titus 3:5, etc.).

Which work in James 2 should I emulate to be saved? Should I attempt human sacrifice or commit treason?

Workingmum · Oct 15, 2004

I think Rich Mullins was an amazing Christian artist. His song "Our God is an Awesome God" embodies the whole simplicity of worshipping God. And did you ever see him play that harpsicord thing? It was inspiring!!! I haven't read any of his interviews but I have seen some of his videos, and I think his perspective on life was greatly influenced by his simple, humble upbringing. And I don't think he was mocking the born-again experience at all with his statement - as a born-again believer I have had times of renewing after I have slipped away a little from Jesus and they were more amazing than my first experience at the age of 8.

xtxArchxAngelxtx · Oct 15, 2004

LondonsBurning said:
Even if he lost the fire late in life, his contributions to CCM simply cannot be overlooked.

This depends on ones point of view of CCM.

I personly dislike about 90% of CCM bands/groups/singers. Not because of their music, but by who they are.

It is because of CCM that bands like 12 stones, and POD are being taken off the shelves of christian book and music stores.

I will stop there, but I could rant about the double standards and hypocrisy, and lack of honesty for quite a while.

BlessedMan · Oct 15, 2004

xtxArchxAngelxtx said:
This depends on ones point of view of CCM.

I personly dislike about 90% of CCM bands/groups/singers. Not because of their music, but by who they are.

It is because of CCM that bands like 12 stones, and POD are being taken off the shelves of christian book and music stores.

I will stop there, but I could rant about the double standards and hypocrisy, and lack of honesty for quite a while.

Why is CCM getting 12 stones and POD off the shelf?

90%??? Really? Like who? So I'm assuming you listen to only the 10%??? If so, who are they?

xtxArchxAngelxtx · Oct 15, 2004

12 stones is being taken off because a friend of theirs said you guys "kick @ss" and they printed in their liners where they talk about their friends and thank yous.

POD has been off the shelf for at least a year now because of the CD case which has no nudity showing, infact it's a drawing of a female butterfly, but they found it to be indecent.

Rich Mullins for one. This whole issue is crazy. Why would he say this?

Amy grant for another. Shes had a divorce and there has been other issues with that... not to mention her videos.

Yet they are both still on the shelves.

MOST (not all) CCM bands hit on strictly emotional factors of God, which is fine... But yet I find almost no honesty in any of thier music. How freaking difficult is it to sing songs directly from scripture or redoing worship songs, or even creating your own? It's almost as if CCM base who they sell by what they sound like than looking down into the real scheme of things.

Just for the record, here are some CCM bands I do care for:

Jeremy camp
Superchick
The Benjamin Gate
Audo Adrenelin

But yeah, thats about it aside from third day.

For the majority of the CCM musicians who want to be/act the role of worship leaders, many of them do not have the integrity, humilty nor the honesty that is needed.

BlessedMan · Oct 15, 2004

xtxArchxAngelxtx said:
12 stones is being taken off because a friend of theirs said you guys "kick @ss" and they printed in their liners where they talk about their friends and thank yous.

POD has been off the shelf for at least a year now because of the CD case which has no nudity showing, infact it's a drawing of a female butterfly, but they found it to be indecent.

Rich Mullins for one. This whole issue is crazy. Why would he say this?

Amy grant for another. Shes had a divorce and there has been other issues with that... not to mention her videos.

Yet they are both still on the shelves.

MOST (not all) CCM bands hit on strictly emotional factors of God, which is fine... But yet I find almost no honesty in any of thier music. How freaking difficult is it to sing songs directly from scripture or redoing worship songs, or even creating your own? It's almost as if CCM base who they sell by what they sound like than looking down into the real scheme of things.

Just for the record, here are some CCM bands I do care for:

Jeremy camp
Superchick
The Benjamin Gate
Audo Adrenelin

But yeah, thats about it aside from third day.

For the majority of the CCM musicians who want to be/act the role of worship leaders, many of them do not have the integrity, humilty nor the honesty that is needed.

I like the groups/artists you've mentioned but 90% is a little ridiculous. There are a lot of great groups/artists out there. Yes, there are some (Amy Grant, Sandi Patti) that have been bad apples, but a few bad apples shouldn't spoil the whole basket!

P.S.- Seeing Caedmon's Call in a couple weeks....woohoo!

xtxArchxAngelxtx · Oct 15, 2004

BlessedMan said:
I like the groups/artists you've mentioned but 90% is a little ridiculous. There are a lot of great groups/artists out there. Yes, there are some (Amy Grant, Sandi Patti) that have been bad apples, but a few bad apples shouldn't spoil the whole basket!

P.S.- Seeing Caedmon's Call in a couple weeks....woohoo!

Caedomns Call is another group...

I can't help but to look at most (about 90%) of CCM bands and think they are being self involved. That is just my own thoughts though.

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