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Hi seeingeyes,I haven't read all 99 pages, but something occurs to me (please stop me if this has been mentioned):
If the story of the Rich Man and Lazarus was intended to be taken as a literal 'snapshot' of hell, then why is it that I have never heard anyone claim that heaven and hell are seperated by a chasm, or that people in hell could have a chat with Abraham?
Consistency is key.
Hi seeingeyes,
That seems like a good question. I'm not one of those that thinks we have all the answers, but it sure is fun looking for them.
There are some that contend that Ephesians 4:8-10, addresses the Messiah leading the righteous in that place up to heaven with Him. That would seem consistent and answer your question.
When I read the parable of the Rich man, I wonder if it were not just a parable, but also a prophecy concerning the '5 brother' that remained alive, especially when the topic of the resurrection is brought up. But that's just me.
The presumption is that until the resurrection of Messiah, both the righteous and the condemned were basically in the same place, separated by the aforementioned 'chasm'. But with the Ascension of Messiah, Abraham, et. al., were taken by Him to that which is above, leaving the condemned below, hence the current hell below, heaven above scenario.* snip *
In that passage hell is 'down there' and heaven is 'up there', which would seem to contradict the (literal) idea that there is communication between the two locales (except through Christ who 'fills the universe').
The presumption is that until the resurrection of Messiah, both the righteous and the condemned were basically in the same place, separated by the aforementioned 'chasm'. But with the Ascension of Messiah, Abraham, et. al., were taken by Him to that which is above, leaving the condemned below, hence the current hell below, heaven above scenario.
Hope that helps...
So too did Enoch, But did either physically die? That seems to be an unanswered question.Of course, Elijah throws a monkey wrench in that since he went up instead of down in the ground. And then Moses and Elijah showed up at the Transfiguration before Jesus 'descended' and then 'ascended'.
And it would be difficult indeed to say why Moses and Elijah were exceptions to the 'system' when Abraham was not.
Or a horse and chariot in this raceSo too did Enoch, But did either physically die? That seems to be an unanswered question.
Also there seems to be some disagreement as to whether or not the event you describe with Moses and Elijah was a vision or a real event in the contextually then-current time frame.
I'm not looking to debate. I'm just pointing out that there is a possibility that there is more to this than meets the eye. If you choose to discount the story of the 'Rich Man' as parable having no basis in fact, fine. I don't really have a dog in the fight as the saying goes. I just think the possibilities are interesting.
Blessings,
Phillip
The Chariot Race Scene From Ben Hur, Now With Yakety Sax - YouTubeRev 9:9
And they had breastplates like breastplates of iron, and the sound of their wings [was] like the sound of chariots with many horses running into battle.
[Haggai 2:22/Revelation 18:13]
Don't you mean Elijah and Enoch?Neither Jacob nor Enoch died.
Blue Letter Bible - LexiconHebrews 11:5
By faith Enoch was translated -- not to see death, and was not found, because God did translate him; for before his translation he had been testified to -- that he had pleased God well,
. . .No one has actually answered or responded to the issues of my post in any serious way.
My post was not about what "I think" God should do in order to be fair.
My post is about the reality of eternal torment, and how that fits with the mercy of God. Is God's mercy greater than ours?
How could the few elect be happy throughout eternity knowing the suffering going on in Hell?
Why would a merciful God condemn the lost to eternal torture---an atrocity worse than anything committed by the most evil humans here on earth?
Also consider the following:
Was the consequence of the sin of Adam and Eve eternal torment? Of course, the answer is no. Death is the consequence.
The New Testament tells us the wages of sin is death and Christ conquered death.
The most famous passage of Scripture, John 3:16 says, "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life." Parish vs. eternal life.
If eternal torment is the price we pay for sin, then what did Jesus accomplish on the cross? Is he spending eternity in torment to take our place?
Acts 2 (ESV):
22 Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a man attested to you by God with mighty works and wonders and signs that God did through him in your midst, as you yourselves know 23 this Jesus, delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God, you crucified and killed by the hands of lawless men. 24 God raised him up, loosing the pangs of death, because it was not possible for him to be held by it.
Romans 5:
14 Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sinning was not like the transgression of Adam, who was a type of the one who was to come.
15 But the free gift is not like the trespass. For if many died through one man's trespass, much more have the grace of God and the free gift by the grace of that one man Jesus Christ abounded for many. 16 And the free gift is not like the result of that one man's sin. For the judgment following one trespass brought condemnation, but the free gift following many trespasses brought justification. 17 For if, because of one man's trespass, death reigned through that one man, much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man Jesus Christ.
18 Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men.
Romans 6:
4We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we shall certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his. 6 We know that our old self was crucified with him in order that the body of sin might be brought to nothing, so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin. 7 For one who has died has been set free from sin. 8 Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. 9 We know that Christ, being raised from the dead, will never die again; death no longer has dominion over him. 10 For the death he died he died to sin, once for all, but the life he lives he lives to God. 11 So you also must consider yourselves dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus.
Also consider Psalms:
Psalms 49:
10 When we look at the wise, they die;
fool and dolt perish together
and leave their wealth to others.
11 Their graves are their homes forever,
their dwelling places to all generations,
though they named lands their own.
12 Mortals cannot abide in their pomp;
they are like the animals that perish.
13 Such is the fate of the foolhardy,
the end of those who are pleased with their lot.Selah
14Like sheep they are appointed for Sheol;
Death shall be their shepherd;
straight to the grave they descend,
and their form shall waste away;
Sheol shall be their home.
15 But God will ransom my soul from the power of Sheol,
for he will receive me.Selah
_________________________
So how did we go from "graves as eternal resting places" to eternal torment?
How did we go from parish vs. eternal life to eternal torment vs. eternal life in Heaven?
If you believe in eternal torment; does such unimaginable suffering stir even a small spark of compassion?
Anna
So too did Enoch, But did either physically die? That seems to be an unanswered question.
Also there seems to be some disagreement as to whether or not the event you describe with Moses and Elijah was a vision or a real event in the contextually then-current time frame.
I'm not looking to debate. I'm just pointing out that there is a possibility that there is more to this than meets the eye. If you choose to discount the story of the 'Rich Man' as parable having no basis in fact, fine. I don't really have a dog in the fight as the saying goes. I just think the possibilities are interesting.
Blessings,
Phillip
Don't you mean Elijah and Enoch?
The author of Hebrews does mention Enoch:
Blue Letter Bible - Lexicon
Strong's Number G3346 matches the Greek μετατίθημι (metatithēmi), which occurs 7 times in 5 verses in the Greek concordance
3346. metatithemi met-at-ith'-ay-mee from 3326 and 5087; to transfer, i.e. (literally) transport, (by implication) exchange, (reflexively) change sides, or (figuratively) pervert:--carry over, change, remove, translate, turn.
Who here has done that?We can't just pull the Lazarus story out of context, and ignore the rest of Holy Scripture. Well, I suppose you can; but that wouldn't honestly represent Scripture.
So, no one wants to discuss what Scripture has to say about the wages of sin and the fate of the lost? No response to my post 966? No answers to my questions?
Post 966:
Hopeful,
Anna
Excellent!I mention Elijah because he went 'up'. Not sure which direction Enoch went. (Sideways, maybe?)
I'm just trying to demonstrate how taking a 'strictly literal' view of this particular passage necessitates abandoning the usual ideas of 'heaven' and 'hell' in Christendom.
Yet, the 'strictly literal' view is usually invoked to uphold the usual ideas of 'hell' in Christendom. So it's a catch-22.
Thanks for sticking it out with me, brother.
OK, back to the OP. So what about all the cool 'coincidences' with the High Priests in real life and the 'Rich man in the parable? Any takers?
LOOK! The post number! I've turned 666 on it's head!
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