By your own admission, misunderstanding abounds, including yours.
Parables are meant to teach the simple people, simple ideas in clear concepts they can relate to. They take earthly relationships and relate them to heavenly ideas. These will never be exact or perfect descriptors of a heavenly concept. Regardless if the text is a story or parable, the message is SIMPLE.
You take this and twist it into a complex concept with no explicit relationship between the earthly and the heavenly objects in the text. You take the simple concepts and throw them out. You forget who Jesus was talking to, simple people.
Further you ignore the context of the preceding parable of the shrewd manager which is clearly about judgement and reward for our actions in this age.
Ease up bro.By your own admission, misunderstanding abounds, including yours.
Regardless if the text is a story or parable, the message is SIMPLE.
You take this and twist it into a complex concept with no explicit relationship between the earthly and the heavenly objects in the text. You take the simple concepts and throw them out. You forget who Jesus was talking to, simple people..........
By your own admission, misunderstanding abounds, including yours.
Parables are meant to teach the simple people, simple ideas in clear concepts they can relate to. They take earthly relationships and relate them to heavenly ideas. These will never be exact or perfect descriptors of a heavenly concept. Regardless if the text is a story or parable, the message is SIMPLE.
You take this and twist it into a complex concept with no explicit relationship between the earthly and the heavenly objects in the text. You take the simple concepts and throw them out. You forget who Jesus was talking to, simple people.
Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
Are you wealthy and trying to justify your self to someone.This is a spinoff from another thread that is closed:
Rich-man and Lazarus True story or Parable
Why do some commentators view the Rich Man and Lazarus parable of Luke 16 as of the most misunderstood parables in NT?
If I am understanding this correctly, it appears it is more of a covenantle story between the OC[Moses] and NC[Jesus]
LUKE 16:26 " 'And besides all this, between us[NC Jesus/Spirit?] and ye[OC/Moses/Carnal?] there is a great gulf fixed,
so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.' "
LUKE 16:29 "Abraham said to him, 'They have Moses and the prophets;
let them hear them.' "
Lazarus and the Rich Man - Here a little, there a little - Commentary
The parable of Lazarus and the rich man has been the foundation for many of the erroneous beliefs about "hell" within traditional Christianity. Some have viewed it not as a parable, but as a true story Yeshua told to give details about the punishment of sinners in hell. Yet a thorough, unbiased examination of this story will show that the generally accepted interpretations of this passage of Scripture are erroneous and misleading. In this article, we will go through the parable verse by verse to determine what the Messiah was truly teaching..............................
While the significance of this seemingly pointless detail has been neglected by scholars throughout the centuries, you can be certain that it did not escape the notice of the Pharisees and scribes to which Yeshua was speaking. They thoroughly knew their history and were extremely proud of their heritage. Yeshua wanted those self-righteous Pharisees to know exactly who he was referring to with this parable. This detail cements the identity of the rich man as the House of Judah, the Jews!
CONCLUSION
The parable of Lazarus and the rich man, long used by mainstream Christian ministers to teach the "reality of hell," really has nothing to say about punishment or reward in the afterlife. Yeshua used this story, which fit the common misconception about life after death in his day, to show the fate that awaited the Jewish nation because of the unbelief and faithlessness which caused them to reject him as the Messiah.............
Kindgdom Bible Studies Template Page
The story of the rich man and Lazarus is without doubt one of the most misunderstood of all the stories in the Bible. Is it a parable, or an actual statement of facts concerning life beyond the grave? It is strenuously denied by most evangelists that this story, as told by Christ, could be a parable. They hold that this is not a parable because it starts out in narrative form. It is argued, because it reads, “There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day,” that Christ is speaking here of an actual incident that took place. But in the parable of the prodigal son, in the fifteenth chapter of Luke, the narrative introduction is found also, for it says, “A certain man had two sons...”
THE RICH MAN
The parable of the rich man and Lazarus is without question one of the least understood of all the teachings of our Lord. What is its aim? It is a similitude of something; for all the parables are similitudes,..................
Observe the particulars respecting the rich man. He was one of Abraham’s seed, one who even in hell could not forget his election, but still cried, “Father! Abraham.” He was “clothed in purple and fine linen, “the raiment of the Kingdom, and, as a child of the Kingdom, he “fared sumptuously every day.” Who is this man? The rich man in this parable represents the Jewish nation, the house of Judah,
Purple is the color of royalty. Fine linen stands for righteousness in this instance the righteousness of the law, established by the priests and Levites who, dressed in white linen, officiated in the sacrifices and ceremonies of the nation. The rich man was “clothed in purple and fine linen.” Those who are in purple are rulers. The rich man was a ruler. And Jesus never uttered His parables or sermons concerning someone away off in Siberia or China. He spoke to and of the Jews, the church of His day. Judah was the royal tribe, and purple is the color pertaining to royalty. The kingdom of Judah had the ministry of the priesthood - clothed in fine linen.
.................................................
Your assertions regarding what is "confined" in parables offers no supporting evidence. Parables are as unlimited in mechanics as visions, dreams, or any other figurative method.Christ would not teach falsehoods about eternal punishment. Even if it could be proven this is a parable, a parable is "confined to that which is real. Its imagery always embodies a narrative which is true to the facts and experiences of human life” (Terry, M. S. 1890. Hermeneutics. New York, NY: Eaton & Mains.) Are the Dead Conscious?
Christ shows there is a continued existence of both good and bad, consciousness of both, a permanent fixed gulf with no end and no crossing over.
Any attempt to make the text literal creates complete contradiction with the rest of the Scriptures.
This is a spinoff from another thread that is closed:
Rich-man and Lazarus True story or Parable
Why do some commentators view the Rich Man and Lazarus parable of Luke 16 as of the most misunderstood parables in NT?
If I am understanding this correctly, it appears it is more of a covenantle story between the OC[Moses] and NC[Jesus]
LUKE 16:26 " 'And besides all this, between us[NC Jesus/Spirit?] and ye[OC/Moses/Carnal?] there is a great gulf fixed,
so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.' "
LUKE 16:29 "Abraham said to him, 'They have Moses and the prophets;
let them hear them.' "
Lazarus and the Rich Man - Here a little, there a little - Commentary
The parable of Lazarus and the rich man has been the foundation for many of the erroneous beliefs about "hell" within traditional Christianity. Some have viewed it not as a parable, but as a true story Yeshua told to give details about the punishment of sinners in hell. Yet a thorough, unbiased examination of this story will show that the generally accepted interpretations of this passage of Scripture are erroneous and misleading. In this article, we will go through the parable verse by verse to determine what the Messiah was truly teaching..............................
While the significance of this seemingly pointless detail has been neglected by scholars throughout the centuries, you can be certain that it did not escape the notice of the Pharisees and scribes to which Yeshua was speaking. They thoroughly knew their history and were extremely proud of their heritage. Yeshua wanted those self-righteous Pharisees to know exactly who he was referring to with this parable. This detail cements the identity of the rich man as the House of Judah, the Jews!
CONCLUSION
The parable of Lazarus and the rich man, long used by mainstream Christian ministers to teach the "reality of hell," really has nothing to say about punishment or reward in the afterlife. Yeshua used this story, which fit the common misconception about life after death in his day, to show the fate that awaited the Jewish nation because of the unbelief and faithlessness which caused them to reject him as the Messiah.............
Kindgdom Bible Studies Template Page
The story of the rich man and Lazarus is without doubt one of the most misunderstood of all the stories in the Bible. Is it a parable, or an actual statement of facts concerning life beyond the grave? It is strenuously denied by most evangelists that this story, as told by Christ, could be a parable. They hold that this is not a parable because it starts out in narrative form. It is argued, because it reads, “There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day,” that Christ is speaking here of an actual incident that took place. But in the parable of the prodigal son, in the fifteenth chapter of Luke, the narrative introduction is found also, for it says, “A certain man had two sons...”
THE RICH MAN
The parable of the rich man and Lazarus is without question one of the least understood of all the teachings of our Lord. What is its aim? It is a similitude of something; for all the parables are similitudes,..................
Observe the particulars respecting the rich man. He was one of Abraham’s seed, one who even in hell could not forget his election, but still cried, “Father! Abraham.” He was “clothed in purple and fine linen, “the raiment of the Kingdom, and, as a child of the Kingdom, he “fared sumptuously every day.” Who is this man? The rich man in this parable represents the Jewish nation, the house of Judah,
Purple is the color of royalty. Fine linen stands for righteousness in this instance the righteousness of the law, established by the priests and Levites who, dressed in white linen, officiated in the sacrifices and ceremonies of the nation. The rich man was “clothed in purple and fine linen.” Those who are in purple are rulers. The rich man was a ruler. And Jesus never uttered His parables or sermons concerning someone away off in Siberia or China. He spoke to and of the Jews, the church of His day. Judah was the royal tribe, and purple is the color pertaining to royalty. The kingdom of Judah had the ministry of the priesthood - clothed in fine linen.
.................................................
This is a spinoff from another thread that is closed:
Rich-man and Lazarus True story or Parable
Why do some commentators view the Rich Man and Lazarus parable of Luke 16 as of the most misunderstood parables in NT?
If I am understanding this correctly, it appears it is more of a covenantle story between the OC[Moses] and NC[Jesus]
LUKE 16:26 " 'And besides all this, between us[NC Jesus/Spirit?] and ye[OC/Moses/Carnal?] there is a great gulf fixed,
so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.' "
LUKE 16:29 "Abraham said to him, 'They have Moses and the prophets;
let them hear them.' "
Lazarus and the Rich Man - Here a little, there a little - Commentary
The parable of Lazarus and the rich man has been the foundation for many of the erroneous beliefs about "hell" within traditional Christianity. Some have viewed it not as a parable, but as a true story Yeshua told to give details about the punishment of sinners in hell. Yet a thorough, unbiased examination of this story will show that the generally accepted interpretations of this passage of Scripture are erroneous and misleading. In this article, we will go through the parable verse by verse to determine what the Messiah was truly teaching..............................
While the significance of this seemingly pointless detail has been neglected by scholars throughout the centuries, you can be certain that it did not escape the notice of the Pharisees and scribes to which Yeshua was speaking. They thoroughly knew their history and were extremely proud of their heritage. Yeshua wanted those self-righteous Pharisees to know exactly who he was referring to with this parable. This detail cements the identity of the rich man as the House of Judah, the Jews!
CONCLUSION
The parable of Lazarus and the rich man, long used by mainstream Christian ministers to teach the "reality of hell," really has nothing to say about punishment or reward in the afterlife. Yeshua used this story, which fit the common misconception about life after death in his day, to show the fate that awaited the Jewish nation because of the unbelief and faithlessness which caused them to reject him as the Messiah.............
Kindgdom Bible Studies Template Page
The story of the rich man and Lazarus is without doubt one of the most misunderstood of all the stories in the Bible. Is it a parable, or an actual statement of facts concerning life beyond the grave? It is strenuously denied by most evangelists that this story, as told by Christ, could be a parable. They hold that this is not a parable because it starts out in narrative form. It is argued, because it reads, “There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day,” that Christ is speaking here of an actual incident that took place. But in the parable of the prodigal son, in the fifteenth chapter of Luke, the narrative introduction is found also, for it says, “A certain man had two sons...”
THE RICH MAN
The parable of the rich man and Lazarus is without question one of the least understood of all the teachings of our Lord. What is its aim? It is a similitude of something; for all the parables are similitudes,..................
Observe the particulars respecting the rich man. He was one of Abraham’s seed, one who even in hell could not forget his election, but still cried, “Father! Abraham.” He was “clothed in purple and fine linen, “the raiment of the Kingdom, and, as a child of the Kingdom, he “fared sumptuously every day.” Who is this man? The rich man in this parable represents the Jewish nation, the house of Judah,
Purple is the color of royalty. Fine linen stands for righteousness in this instance the righteousness of the law, established by the priests and Levites who, dressed in white linen, officiated in the sacrifices and ceremonies of the nation. The rich man was “clothed in purple and fine linen.” Those who are in purple are rulers. The rich man was a ruler. And Jesus never uttered His parables or sermons concerning someone away off in Siberia or China. He spoke to and of the Jews, the church of His day. Judah was the royal tribe, and purple is the color pertaining to royalty. The kingdom of Judah had the ministry of the priesthood - clothed in fine linen.
.................................................
If you are going to half quote scripture to make an argument, don't do it so half baked. A full quote and reading of scripture teaches that the reason the Pharisees rejected God was not because they did not understand scripture or the words that Jesus taught because the concepts were too complicated for them.Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
No one believes it's literal. Abraham's bosom is obviously figurative of SOMETHING. It certainly isn't his literal chest cavity. Everyone assigns SOME figurative meaning to the elements of the parable. Almost everyone understands Jesus' figurative meaning in "drink my blood, and eat my flesh".How? No one in this thread has yet ever shown that any of the parables were not also literal. That point was brought up multiple times, and no one has ever addressed it. You keep saying that it's not literal, because it's a parable, and you ignore the repeated point made by others that all of the parables are about things that probably did happen at some time.
If you are going to half quote scripture to make an argument, don't do it so half baked. A full quote and reading of scripture teaches that the reason the Pharisees rejected God was not because they did not understand scripture or the words that Jesus taught because the concepts were too complicated for them.
How ironic, the "smart" theologians of Jesus' day missed the simple message Jesus had, but the simple people of the day understood it. Sometimes this still applies today. The reason why they did not understand Jesus' parables is because their hearts were hardened, not because the message was too complicated for them.
Matthew 13:13 This is why I speak to them in parables:
“Though seeing, they do not see;
though hearing, they do not hear or understand.
14 In them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah:
“‘You will be ever hearing but never understanding;
you will be ever seeing but never perceiving.15
For this people’s heart has become calloused;
they hardly hear with their ears,
and they have closed their eyes.
Otherwise they might see with their eyes,
hear with their ears,
understand with their hearts
and turn, and I would heal them.’
If you are going to half quote scripture to make an argument, don't do it so half baked. A full quote and reading of scripture teaches that the reason the Pharisees rejected God was not because they did not understand scripture or the words that Jesus taught because the concepts were too complicated for them.
How ironic, the "smart" theologians of Jesus' day missed the simple message Jesus had, but the simple people of the day understood it. Sometimes this still applies today. The reason why they did not understand Jesus' parables is because their hearts were hardened, not because the message was too complicated for them.
Matthew 13:13 This is why I speak to them in parables:
“Though seeing, they do not see;
though hearing, they do not hear or understand.
14 In them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah:
“‘You will be ever hearing but never understanding;
you will be ever seeing but never perceiving.15
For this people’s heart has become calloused;
they hardly hear with their ears,
and they have closed their eyes.
Otherwise they might see with their eyes,
hear with their ears,
understand with their hearts
and turn, and I would heal them.’
Your assertions regarding what is "confined" in parables offers no supporting evidence. Parables are as unlimited in mechanics as visions, dreams, or any other figurative method.
We KNOW the parable of the rich man and Lazarus is a parable for several reasons.
1) Scripture states clearly Jesus ALWAYS spoke to them in parables. (Matt13:34, Mark 4:11,34)
2) The text begins EXACTLY like the first parable in the same chapter! (There was a certain rich man...)
3) Any attempt to make the text literal creates complete contradiction with the rest of the Scriptures.
4) The text is a magnificent prophecy/warning about what was going to happen to Israel for rejecting Jesus.
No, it teaches Israel (the rich man) was going to be removed from the Abrahamic Promises (Abraham's bosom), and the Gentiles (Lazarus) were going to be grafted in (Matt 21:43, Rom 11)1) Again, even if it was a parable it still teaches eternal torment else Christ lied. The design of parables was to reveal truths, not lies.
Sorry, your rewording the Scriptures.TheSeabass said:2) All that Christ spoke that day in Matt 13 was in parables to fulfill a prophecy (verse 35), but Christ did not always speak in parables.
Irrelevant.TheSeabass said:3) Luke 16:1 does not give a specific name as in Luke 16:20 "And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus". No need to give a specific name if "Lazarus" did not really exist.
No, it's about the TRUE riches of God's promises. The leadership of Israel was wasting God's treasure.TheSeabass said:4) in the context of Luke 16 Christ's theme is about money, riches.
Even if we presume it's not a "true story", we have to remember it's a parable, NOT a fable. Fables use unrealistic situations (a rabbit and tortoise being sentient and agreeing to a foot race), whereas parables use realistic situations - things that can actually happen in reality.
While translating this parable some years back, I came across a greek word #1276 in vs 26 that really stuck out at me as symbolizing "sail over".
If you look at the instances where this word is used, it always denotes crossing over water in a boat.
Pretty interesting:
Genesis 1:1 (NKJV)
Strong's Number G1276 matches the Greek διαπεράω (diaperaō), which occurs 6 times in 6 verses in the Greek concordance
to pass over, cross over, i.e. a river, a lake
Luke 16:26 And upon all of these between us and ye a great chasm hath been established so that those willing to cross-over/diabhnai <1224> (5629) hence toward ye no may be able,
neither thence toward us may be ferrying/diaperwsin <1276> (5725)
Hebrews 11:29 By Faith They crossed-over diebhsan <1224> (5627) the Red Sea as thru Dry,
which the Egyptians assaying to do were drowned.
1224. diabaino dee-ab-ah'-ee-no from 1223 and the base of 939; to cross:--come over, pass (through).
1276. diaperao dee-ap-er-ah'-o from 1223 and a derivative of the base of 4008; to cross entirely:--go over, pass (over), sail over.
Deu 28:68
“And the LORD will take you back to Egypt in ships, by the way of which I said to you, ‘You shall never see it again.'
And there you shall be offered for sale to your enemies as male and female slaves, but no one will buy you.”
No, it teaches Israel (the rich man) was going to be removed from the Abrahamic Promises (Abraham's bosom), and the Gentiles (Lazarus) were going to be grafted in (Matt 21:43, Rom 11)
Sorry, your rewording the Scriptures.
Irrelevant.
No, it's about the TRUE riches of God's promises. The leadership of Israel was wasting God's treasure.
This is a spinoff from another thread that is closed:
Rich-man and Lazarus True story or Parable
Why do some commentators view the Rich Man and Lazarus parable of Luke 16 as of the most misunderstood parables in NT?
If I am understanding this correctly, it appears it is more of a covenantle story between the OC[Moses] and NC[Jesus]
LUKE 16:26 " 'And besides all this, between us[NC Jesus/Spirit?] and ye[OC/Moses/Carnal?] there is a great gulf fixed,
so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.' "
LUKE 16:29 "Abraham said to him, 'They have Moses and the prophets;
let them hear them.' "
Lazarus and the Rich Man - Here a little, there a little - Commentary
The parable of Lazarus and the rich man has been the foundation for many of the erroneous beliefs about "hell" within traditional Christianity. Some have viewed it not as a parable, but as a true story Yeshua told to give details about the punishment of sinners in hell. Yet a thorough, unbiased examination of this story will show that the generally accepted interpretations of this passage of Scripture are erroneous and misleading. In this article, we will go through the parable verse by verse to determine what the Messiah was truly teaching..............................
While the significance of this seemingly pointless detail has been neglected by scholars throughout the centuries, you can be certain that it did not escape the notice of the Pharisees and scribes to which Yeshua was speaking. They thoroughly knew their history and were extremely proud of their heritage. Yeshua wanted those self-righteous Pharisees to know exactly who he was referring to with this parable. This detail cements the identity of the rich man as the House of Judah, the Jews!
CONCLUSION
The parable of Lazarus and the rich man, long used by mainstream Christian ministers to teach the "reality of hell," really has nothing to say about punishment or reward in the afterlife. Yeshua used this story, which fit the common misconception about life after death in his day, to show the fate that awaited the Jewish nation because of the unbelief and faithlessness which caused them to reject him as the Messiah.............
Kindgdom Bible Studies Template Page
The story of the rich man and Lazarus is without doubt one of the most misunderstood of all the stories in the Bible. Is it a parable, or an actual statement of facts concerning life beyond the grave? It is strenuously denied by most evangelists that this story, as told by Christ, could be a parable. They hold that this is not a parable because it starts out in narrative form. It is argued, because it reads, “There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day,” that Christ is speaking here of an actual incident that took place. But in the parable of the prodigal son, in the fifteenth chapter of Luke, the narrative introduction is found also, for it says, “A certain man had two sons...”
THE RICH MAN
The parable of the rich man and Lazarus is without question one of the least understood of all the teachings of our Lord. What is its aim? It is a similitude of something; for all the parables are similitudes,..................
Observe the particulars respecting the rich man. He was one of Abraham’s seed, one who even in hell could not forget his election, but still cried, “Father! Abraham.” He was “clothed in purple and fine linen, “the raiment of the Kingdom, and, as a child of the Kingdom, he “fared sumptuously every day.” Who is this man? The rich man in this parable represents the Jewish nation, the house of Judah,
Purple is the color of royalty. Fine linen stands for righteousness in this instance the righteousness of the law, established by the priests and Levites who, dressed in white linen, officiated in the sacrifices and ceremonies of the nation. The rich man was “clothed in purple and fine linen.” Those who are in purple are rulers. The rich man was a ruler. And Jesus never uttered His parables or sermons concerning someone away off in Siberia or China. He spoke to and of the Jews, the church of His day. Judah was the royal tribe, and purple is the color pertaining to royalty. The kingdom of Judah had the ministry of the priesthood - clothed in fine linen.
.................................................
Quite the contrary, stopping with the simplistic will rob one of the truth. Jesus criticized the Jewish leadership for their squandering of God's treasure, their depriving the common people of the truth.The lesson given in Luke 16 is about wealth and being a good steward of God's money and the eternal fate of those that are not good stewards. Anything beyond this one is reading too much into it.
Scripture please?TheSeabass said:Far from being"irrelevant" that a specific name was used.
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