Removing the laws of God- what does it really mean?

Nathan@work · Mar 31, 2021

imge said:
God's laws are not hard to read or understand. The problem is people wanting to interrupt it to fit their lifestyle instead doing what God asked.

A good example of that is this:

Exodus 20:8 Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it Holy. God wants us to keep His Sabbath day Holy. It is a commandment, that means it something He commanded us to do. He expanded on the commandment to say:
9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is a sabbath to the Lord your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your male or female servant, nor your animals, nor any foreigner residing in your towns. 11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.

Not sure how anyone could interrupt that to mean:

I command Christ to give you rest or
Pick any day as a holy day or
forget that I said remember, I didn't mean that or
the first day is a holy day
or what other reason (excuse) that is just not there in the commandment.

I think you are bypassing the point that the new covenant is not like the old. In other words, it is different. Or in other words, it is not the same.

So when you say it is the same, and then have to teach others about it - seems to go against what Jeremiah prophesied about.

I know exactly what the Sabbath command was in the old covenant given at Horeb.

Nathan@work · Mar 31, 2021

imge said:
Written in our hearts means we obey out of our love and not out of fear. We obey God, because He asked and we love Him. His Spirit will not guide you into breaking His laws, that is the "other spirit" so based on the choices we make, to sin or not sin you will know who is guiding you. God does not force His laws on us, its a choice that is in our hearts when we obey. God's character is in His laws and when we obey we become more like Him. In heaven there will be no more sin, but we will still have free will. God does have a people who obeys Him. We all have choices to make and God wants us to be doers and not hearers of His Word. God bless

This may be a bit of a personal question, but it came to my mind when I read your post.

Do you ever feel like you won’t be good enough for heaven?

Do you ever feel like you won’t be good enough in heaven?

SabbathBlessings · Mar 31, 2021

Nathan@work said:
I think you are bypassing the point that the new covenant is not like the old. In other words, it is different. Or in other words, it is not the same.

So when you say it is the same, and then have to teach others about it - seems to go against what Jeremiah prophesied about.

I know exactly what the Sabbath command was in the old covenant given at Horeb.

Its the same laws. The laws did not change, they are in our hearts, we obey out of our love not because God commanded us to. He already told us they stand forever and ever.

“It is easier for heaven and earth to pass away than for one tittle of the law to fail” (Luke 16:17).
“My covenant I will not break, nor alter the word that has gone out of My lips” (Psalm 89:34).
“All His precepts [commandments] are sure. They stand fast forever and ever” (Psalm 111:7, 8).

Malachi 3:6 “For I am the Lord, I do not change;
Hebrews 13:8 Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever.

Proverbs 30:5 Every word of God is pure;
He is a shield to those who put their trust in Him.
6 Do not add to His words,
Lest He rebuke you, and you be found a liar.

Isaiah 8:20 To the law and to the testimony! If they do not speak according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

LoveGodsWord · Mar 31, 2021

Nathan@work said:
I think you are bypassing the point that the new covenant is not like the old. In other words, it is different. Or in other words, it is not the same.

So when you say it is the same, and then have to teach others about it - seems to go against what Jeremiah prophesied about.

I know exactly what the Sabbath command was in the old covenant given at Horeb.

It seems your understanding of the old and new covenants are in error (Please see post # 1797 linked). God's Sabbath was made for all mankind according to Jesus *Mark 2:27 at creation *Genesis 2:1-3

SabbathBlessings · Mar 31, 2021

Nathan@work said:
This may be a bit of a personal question, but it came to my mind when I read your post.

Do you ever feel like you won’t be good enough for heaven?

Do you ever feel like you won’t be good enough in heaven?

Yes, of course! That scares me which is why I make a conscience effort to be a doer of His Word and not just a hearer. I fear I will backslide. I fear I will want to enjoy the trappings of the world, more than I want to do His will. This fear keeps me seeking Him daily and slowly letting His Spirit reveal to me my sins, so I can make the needed changes in my life. The first step for me is realizing how much of a sinner I was. I was willing to stop fighting His Spirit by giving up my will and allowing His will to be my new will. I remember vividly when this happened. I asked God for His forgiveness. I prayed to have His His Spirit guide me and help me obey Him. I have never had peace like this in my life before, but its still a process. I want to be re-baptized because I was a teenager when I was baptized and went away for a long time, too long. God bless.

LoveGodsWord · Mar 31, 2021

imge said:
Yes, of course! That scares me which is why I make a conscience effort to be a doer of His Word and not just a hearer. I fear I will backslide. I fear I will want to enjoy the trapping of the world more than I want to do His will. This fear keeps me seeking Him daily and slowly letting His Spirit reveal to me my sins, so I can make the needed changes in my life.

This is the beginning of wisdom *Psalms 111:10; Proverbs 1:7; Proverbs 9:10

SabbathBlessings · Mar 31, 2021

LoveGodsWord said:
This is the beginning of wisdom *Psalms 111:10; Proverbs 1:7; Proverbs 9:10

It’s definitely a process, still have a long way to go. Our Savior is good though!

God bless

Leaf473 · Mar 31, 2021

LoveGodsWord said:
WHAT IS THE OLD COVENANT AND WHAT IS THE NEW?

I think many people do not understand what the old covenant actually is. They think it was only the 10 commandments. While the 10 commandments were included the old covenant according to the scriptures *Exodus 34:28; Deuteronomy 4:13 it was only a part of the old covenant designed to give God's people a knowledge of good (moral right doing) and evil (moral wrong doing). The old covenant also included all the "shadow laws" for remission of sins (Levitical Priesthood; laws for remission of sins through animal sacrifices and sin offerings, the ceremonial laws for the earthly sanctuary, annual Feasts, circumcision etc) and all the other laws written by Moses in the book of the covenant *Exodus 24:7.

It is these "shadow laws" from the Mosaic book of the covenant that have been changed based on better promises *Hebrews 8:1-6 according to Gods' Word in Hebrews not God's 10 commandments. So in the new covenant we no longer follow the old covenant "shadow laws" for remission of sins. Jesus today is our great High Priest *Hebrews 7:1-25 ministering on our behalf in the Heavenly Sanctuary that the Lord pitched and not man of which the earthly was just a copy *Hebrews 8:2-5, Jesus of course representing God's true sacrifice for the sins of the world once and for all *John 1:29; 36; Hebrews 10:10.

It is the "shadow laws" for remission of sins from the Mosaic book of the covenant that are now fulfilled in the new covenant based on better promises *Hebrews 8:1-6; Hebrews 9:1-12; Hebrews 10:1-17 in the body of Christ *Colossians 2:17. According to the scriptures both God's 10 commandments as well as the Mosaic BOOK of the covenant were kept in the Ark of the covenant. God's 10 commandment were placed inside the Ark of the covenant underneath the mercy seat *Exodus 25:16-17; Deuteronomy 10:1-5 while the book of the covenant *Exodus 24:7 was placed in the side of the Ark *Deuteronomy 31:24-26.

So the full story here is that both God's 10 commandments as well as the Mosaic book of the law (Exodus 24:7; Deuteronomy 28:61; 29:21; 30:10; 31:24-26; Josiah 1:8; 8:31-34; 23:6; 24:26; 2 Kings 14:6; 22:8-11; 23:24; 2 Chronicles 17:9; 25:4; 34:14-15; Nehemiah 8:1-8;18; 9:3; Galatians 3:10; Hebrews 9:19; Hebrews 10:7 etc) collectively make up the old covenant not just God's 10 commandments.

It is the old covenant "shadow laws" for the remission of sins that pointed to Jesus and God's plan of salvation in the new covenant based on better promises *Hebrews 8:1-6. Hebrews 10:1-17; Psalms 40:7, that are fulfilled and continued in Christ not God's 10 commandments.

The "shadow laws are those laws for the remission of sins that are fulfilled and continued in the body of Christ *Colossians 2:17 in the new covenant as it is also written "Then said I, See, I come: in the volume of the book it is written of me , Then said I, See, I come in the volume of the book it is written of me, to do your will, O God * Hebrews 10:7 from Psalms 40:7. It is the volume of the book that pointed to Jesus that is fulfilled in the new covenant based on better promises not God's 10 commandments which are continued in the new covenant and according to the scriptures give us the knowledge of what sin is when broken and righteousness when obeyed *Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4; Psalms 119:172 (more scripture support here and here).

So to say we know what sin is without having Gods' 10 commandments is not biblical because the scriptures teach us that it is only by the law we have a knowledge of what sin is according to Paul in Romans 3:20 and Romans 7:7 which agrees with John in 1 John 3:4 and James in James 2:10-11.

It is the new ministration of the Spirit of God working through those who believe God's Word with Jesus as ministering on our behalf in the Heavenly Sanctuary that God promises to change our hearts to love that fulfills God's new covenant promise of salvation from sins to those who believe and follow Gods' Word according to Jeremiah 31:31-34; Ezekiel 36:23-27 that Paul talks about in Hebrews 8:10-12 and Hebrews 10:1-22.

We need to be born again according to Jesus to walk in God's Spirit of love *John 3:3-7; Matthew 22:36-40; Galatians 5:16 because those who have been born again into God's new covenant promise do not knowingly practice sin (breaking God's commandments) according to John in 1 John 3:6-9 and those who do have not seen or know God according to 1 John 2:3-4. No one loves God by breaking His commandments as love is expressed through obedience to God's law according to Jesus in Matthew 22:36-40, Paul in Romans 13:8-10; James in James 2:8-12 and John in 1 John 5:2-3 as we have faith in God's Word *1 John 5:4; Romans 3:31.

Hope this is helpful.

About this part of your post here

So to say we know what sin is without having Gods' 10 commandments is not biblical because the scriptures teach us that it is only by the law we have a knowledge of what sin is according to Paul in Romans 3:20 and Romans 7:7 which agrees with John in 1 John 3:4 and James in James 2:10-11.

I can agree with what you're saying if the "we" above refers to us before being born again and having God's laws written on our hearts.

I can understand using the law, including the Ten commandments, to gain wisdom, kind of polishing the finer points of God's will and character.

But if someone needs to tell you that a law is written on your heart, that part doesn't sound right to me.

Leaf473 · Mar 31, 2021

imge said:
Written in our hearts means we obey out of our love and not out of fear. We obey God, because He asked and we love Him. His Spirit will not guide you into breaking His laws, that is the "other spirit" so based on the choices we make, to sin or not sin you will know who is guiding you. God does not force His laws on us, its a choice that is in our hearts when we obey. God's character is in His laws and when we obey we become more like Him. In heaven there will be no more sin, but we will still have free will. God does have a people who obeys Him. We all have choices to make and God wants us to be doers and not hearers of His Word. God bless

Lots of interesting points in your post, let's start here

Written in our hearts means we obey out of our love and not out of fear.

I think written on our hearts means that we have a kind of innate or instinctual knowledge of God's laws.

Under the law given through Moses, the Levites were to be the teachers of the law, I think.

In the new covenant, it's still good to listen to what other people have to say and to read the law. These things will help a person increase in wisdom, I think.

But Jeremiah prophesied that in the new covenant, people won't say to each other Know the Lord.

Leaf473 · Mar 31, 2021

imge said:
No one can change God's laws. So if clarify you mean change, the answer is below....

“It is easier for heaven and earth to pass away than for one tittle of the law to fail” (Luke 16:17).
“My covenant I will not break, nor alter the word that has gone out of My lips” (Psalm 89:34).
“All His precepts [commandments] are sure. They stand fast forever and ever” (Psalm 111:7, 8).

Malachi 3:6 “For I am the Lord, I do not change;
Hebrews 13:8 Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever.

Proverbs 30:5 Every word of God is pure;
He is a shield to those who put their trust in Him.
6 Do not add to His words,
Lest He rebuke you, and you be found a liar.

Isaiah 8:20 To the law and to the testimony! If they do not speak according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

Well, clarify means what Jesus did when he said it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath.

I think we agreed that Jesus can clarify the commandment.

And I believe we agree that the apostles have that authority also.

So what shall we say?
The New testament writers who may or may not be apostles, like whoever wrote Hebrews or Revelation?

Do they have the authority to clarify the commandment?

LoveGodsWord · Mar 31, 2021

Leaf473 said:
But if someone needs to tell you that a law is written on your heart, that part doesn't sound right to me.

Leaf according to the scriptures you cannot separate love from law as love is expressed in obedience to Gods' law as shown by Jesus in Matthew 22:36-40; Paul in Romans 13:8-10; James in James 2:8-12 and John in 1 John 5:2-3. So it is through being born again to love the fulfills God's law in those who walk in God's Spirit *Galatians 5:16 in those who believe Gods' Word *Romans 3:31. So when it says God will write His law in our hearts in the new covenant promise in Jeremiah 31:31-34; Ezekiel 36:24-27 and repeated by Paul in Hebrews 8:10-12 love is expressed in obedience to Gods' law through faith and is why Jesus says if you love me keep my commandments in John 14:15; John 15:10. Love is how God writes His law in our hearts according to the scriptures through faith *1 John 5:2-4; Romans 3:31.

Hope this helps

Leaf473 · Apr 1, 2021

LoveGodsWord said:
Leaf according to the scriptures you cannot separate love from law as love is expressed in obedience to Gods' law as shown by Jesus in Matthew 22:36-40; Paul in Romans 13:8-10; James in James 2:8-12 and John in 1 John 5:2-3. So it is through being born again to love the fulfills God's law in those who walk in God's Spirit *Galatians 5:16 in those who believe Gods' Word *Romans 3:31. So when it says God will write His law in our hearts in the new covenant promise in Jeremiah 31:31-34; Ezekiel 36:24-27 and repeated by Paul in Hebrews 8:10-12 love is expressed in obedience to Gods' law through faith and is why Jesus says if you love me keep my commandments in John 14:15; John 15:10. Love is how God writes His law in our hearts according to the scriptures through faith *1 John 5:2-4; Romans 3:31.

Hope this helps

When you say,
"Love is how God writes His law in our hearts...",
that tells me how you believe God writes his law.
But it doesn't tell me what laws you believe God has written in our hearts.

When I read that prophecy in Jeremiah, I think it means that when we are born again, God puts a set of instructions in our hearts.

I don't think it's a set of words, more like a set of ideas.

You could also say that he imprints His image on our hearts. We then have a kind of intuition about what God likes and doesn't like.

***************
But what I'm hearing from yourself and @imge is that God puts love in our hearts so that we can fulfill a set of written laws.

He puts the strong desire in our hearts to keep these laws.

These laws are written outside of us, on stone or paper.

We don't know what these laws are until we read them or someone teaches us about them.

Is that a fair explanation of what you believe?

SabbathBlessings · Apr 1, 2021

Leaf473 said:
Well, clarify means what Jesus did when he said it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath.

I think we agreed that Jesus can clarify the commandment.

And I believe we agree that the apostles have that authority also.

So what shall we say?
The New testament writers who may or may not be apostles, like whoever wrote Hebrews or Revelation?

Do they have the authority to clarify the commandment?

Clarify means to have greater understanding, not change. The Sabbath commandment is still “Remember the Sabbath by keeping it Holy” in both old and new covenants. Nothing in Hebrews or Revelations changes this commandment. In Revelations, the three angles are calling us back to get out of Babylon (confusion) and back to worship God who made the Heaven and Earth, which has the same verbiage as God's 4th commandment, where He asked us to Remember for a reason.

Revelations 14:7 Fear God and give glory to Him, for the hour of His judgment has come; and worship Him who made heaven and earth, the sea and springs of water.”

The commandment to worship is the 4th commandment Exodus 20:8 “Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord your God. In it you shall do no work: you, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your male servant, nor your female servant, nor your cattle, nor your stranger who is within your gates. 11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it.

Revelations 14: 8 And another angel followed, saying, “Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she has made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.” - Get out from your confusion regarding God's true day of worship

Revelations 14:9 Then a third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.”

And the very next verse:

Revelations 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.

God's Sabbath and keeping it Holy the way God asked us to Remember is crucial and has not been altered or changed. Jesus said we can do good on Sabbath, but He did not tell us we would receive His rest by disobeying (not keeping it holy) and as @LoveGodsWord pointed out scripture by scripture Hebrew clearly tells us that. There is no change in God's holy day which is why it will continue each and every week from Sabbath to Sabbath- all (those saved) will worship Him forever Isaiah 66:23.

God bless

LoveGodsWord · Apr 1, 2021

Leaf473 said:
When you say,
"Love is how God writes His law in our hearts...",
that tells me how you believe God writes his law.
But it doesn't tell me what laws you believe God has written in our hearts.

When I read that prophecy in Jeremiah, I think it means that when we are born again, God puts a set of instructions in our hearts.

I don't think it's a set of words, more like a set of ideas.

You could also say that he imprints His image on our hearts. We then have a kind of intuition about what God likes and doesn't like.

***************
But what I'm hearing from yourself and @imge is that God puts love in our hearts so that we can fulfill a set of written laws.

He puts the strong desire in our hearts to keep these laws.

These laws are written outside of us, on stone or paper.

We don't know what these laws are until we read them or someone teaches us about them.

Is that a fair explanation of what you believe?

I can't stay now. Take a step back and re-read the posts and the scriptures that are in them. What do you think the posts and the scriptures in them are saying? Unless we are born again into Gods new covenant promise Jesus says we will not enter into the kingdom of Heaven. Love is not separate from Gods' 'law it is how Gods' law is obeyed and expressed in obedience to God's 10 commandments as our duty of love to God and our fellow man. What you are hearing from me is only God's Word and God's Word is not my words but God's

May God bless you as you seek him through his Word.

Leaf473 · Apr 1, 2021

imge said:
Clarify means to have greater understanding, not change. The Sabbath commandment is still “Remember the Sabbath by keeping it Holy” in both old and new covenants. Nothing in Hebrews or Revelations changes this commandment. In Revelations, the three angles are calling us back to get out of Babylon (confusion) and back to worship God who made the Heaven and Earth, which has the same verbiage as God's 4th commandment, where He asked us to Remember for a reason.

Revelations 14:7 Fear God and give glory to Him, for the hour of His judgment has come; and worship Him who made heaven and earth, the sea and springs of water.”

The commandment to worship is the 4th commandment Exodus 20:8 “Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord your God. In it you shall do no work: you, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your male servant, nor your female servant, nor your cattle, nor your stranger who is within your gates. 11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it.

Revelations 14: 8 And another angel followed, saying, “Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she has made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.” - Get out from your confusion regarding God's true day of worship

Revelations 14:9 Then a third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.”

And the very next verse:

Revelations 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.

God's Sabbath and keeping it Holy the way God asked us to Remember is crucial and has not been altered or changed. Jesus said we can do good on Sabbath, but He did not tell us we would receive His rest by disobeying (not keeping it holy) and as @LoveGodsWord pointed out scripture by scripture Hebrew clearly tells us that. There is no change in God's holy day which is why it will continue each and every week from Sabbath to Sabbath- all (those saved) will worship Him forever Isaiah 66:23.

God bless

Thank you for the nice reply.

I take it from your response that those New testament writers who may or may not be apostles do not have the authority to clarify the commandments.

If that's incorrect, please explain more.

It seems like a strange situation. God would use a person to write scripture, but not possibly use that person to clarify his commandments.

And I agree, not change, clarify!

SabbathBlessings · Apr 1, 2021

Leaf473 said:
Thank you for the nice reply.

I take it from your response that those New testament writers who may or may not be apostles do not have the authority to clarify the commandments.

If that's incorrect, please explain more.

It seems like a strange situation. God would use a person to write scripture, but not possibly use that person to clarify his commandments.

And I agree, not change, clarify!

Honestly, I am not sure what you are trying to get at. Why don't you just come out and say what's on your mind.

Leaf473 · Apr 1, 2021

LoveGodsWord said:
I can't stay now. Take a step back and re-read the posts and the scriptures that are in them. What do you think the posts and the scriptures in them are saying? Unless we are born again into Gods new covenant promise Jesus says we will not enter into the kingdom of Heaven. Love is not separate from Gods' 'law it is how Gods' law is obeyed and expressed in obedience to God's 10 commandments as our duty of love to God and our fellow man. What you are hearing from me is only God's Word and God's Word is not my words but God's

May God bless you as you seek him through his Word.

I re-read your post. My impression is that you are saying that God puts love in our hearts. He puts love for him, love for others, and love for his commandments.

When God puts love in our hearts, that's him writing his law on our hearts.

The commandments are external to our hearts. That love makes us able to fulfill his commandments.

That's my impression from what you wrote. If you say different in a particular part, please point me to it.

*************
Did you want to go through a particular post of yours sentence by sentence? We could do that. Please let me know.

Leaf473 · Apr 1, 2021

imge said:
Honestly, I am not sure what you are trying to get at. Why don't you just come out and say what's on your mind.

Who has authority to clarify God's commandments?

Who has authority to say which documents are God's word?

SabbathBlessings · Apr 1, 2021

Leaf473 said:
Who has authority to clarify God's commandments?

Who has authority to say which documents are God's word?

Are you referring to outside the 66 books of the Bible, or within the 66 books the Holy Spirit guided?

Freth · Apr 1, 2021

Leaf473 said:
Who has authority to clarify God's commandments?

Who has authority to say which documents are God's word?

Q: Who has authority to clarify God's commandments?
A: God declared them Himself, writing them in stone. It's written in black and white, just pick up any Bible and go to Exodus 20, or peruse Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. The commandments are found there as well. Or maybe Paul's writings. The commandments are found there. Or how about Revelation? The commandments are found there.

Q: Who has authority to clarify God's commandments?
Answered above. If you don't believe the 66 book canon, then your very Christianity is on shaky ground.

Jesus spent His ministry quoting from the Old Testament, obeying the Sabbath as was His custom and even sending a message from heaven to John, calling it His Revelation (which came from God). What more proof do you need to support commandment-keeping?

If Jesus stood before you and said, "If you love me, keep my commandments", would that be proof enough? Or would you say "Love God and love others" is fulfillment of the law and we have "rest in Jesus". What would He say? Would He say, "Well done, my good and faithful servant"? Or would He say, "As it is written, If you love me, keep my commandments—depart from me, you who work iniquity—I never knew you"?

These are rhetorical questions. The answer is in every book of the Bible. Obey God. Keep the commandments of God written in stone by His very hand.

Removing the laws of God- what does it really mean?

Always ready :)

Always ready :)

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