Removing the laws of God- what does it really mean?

Clare73 said:

Moses was Mediator/Lawgiver.
See Gal 3:19-20; 1Tim 2:5; Heb 8:6, 9:15, where Jesus is the new Mediator.

Jesus is also new Lawgiver (Mt 5:23-47, 12:7-8, 19:9, 21:23-27; chp 23.

Click to expand...

Not a new law. He magnified the law. He was showing us that we truly do not understand what God requires.

God required all of the things that Jesus taught even before Jesus taught them.

Israel could not even keep the ‘simple’(in comparison with the magnification Jesus gave) law already given at the mountain. God sent prophets to tell them and they ignored them.

Israel back then, and ‘Christians’ now, think they know exactly what God wants based on His law. The reason for the law is to show mankind their fallen state.

disciple1 said:

This is a discussion about the law, some people think their justified by obeying the law.

Look at these verses.

Isaiah chapter 28
9 “Who is it he is trying to teach?
To whom is he explaining his message?
To children weaned from their milk,
to those just taken from the breast?
10 For it is:
Do this, do that,
a rule for this, a rule for that;
a little here, a little there.”

All I'm saying is why not obey the easy way.

Galatians chapter 5 verse 14
For the entire law is fulfilled in keeping this one command: "Love your neighbor as yourself."

1 Peter chapter 4 verse 8
Above all, love each other deeply, because love covers over a multitude of sins.

Click to expand...

In order to avoid burning straw men, it helps if there is at least one person claiming that we earn our justification by obeying God's law before you argue against it. All of the laws that God has given are examples of what it looks like to love God and our neighbor, which is why Jesus said in Matthew 22:36-40 that those are the greatest two commandments and that all of the other commandments hang on them, so they are all connected. For example obedience to the command to help the poor looks like obedience to the command to love our neighbor as ourselves, so the command to love fulfills the other commandments because it is the essence of them, and if someone's obedience to the command to love does not look like obedience to God's other commandments, then they are not treating it as being the fulfillment of the other commandments.

Michael Collum said:

Hi there, you win the argument, but I won't read your scripture posts.

Have a nice day.

Click to expand...

Actually, to win an argument requires a dialog: what I did with you was to shine light on your pretense--I didn't prove anything to you by argumentation, what I did is simply called a demonstration; and that, I did easily, solely through your cooperation.

Thanks!

Nathan@work said:

So do you believe Satan said anything that was true to Eve?

Click to expand...

You seem to greatly misunderstand how Satan lies: do you not know that he tried to deceive the Lord by quoting actual scripture?

Nathan@work said:

Mankind knows of good ‘and’ evil. Think about what you read when you read it. Man does not know good ‘from’ evil. You will never find that written in the Bible at least.

Click to expand...

With respect, man knows good from evil by intuition, very much like he knows that black is not white by the same.

This knowledge is now inherent to man, and is fully available after he matures.

It is also by intuition that any man knows that there is a God.

Intuition is inherent knowledge: the knowledge of good and evil, is by definition, inherent.

--Knowing black and white, is equal to knowing black from white; so too is this true of good and evil.

disciple1 said:

But let me show you it's not possible to love your neighbor without loving God, and it is easy to love God and your neighbor, no where in these next verses does it say OK you tried to obey all the little laws one at a time come into my kingdom.

Click to expand...

...that is what I mean by the word presuppose--I mean that we must love God first, as the scriptures teach.

Nathan@work said:

Not a new law.

Click to expand...

New commandment: Jn 13:34, 15:12; Mt 5:21-47, 12:7-8, 19:9, 21:23-27; chp 23.

He magnified the law. He was showing us that we truly do not understand what God requires.

God required all of the things that Jesus taught even before Jesus taught them.

Israel could not even keep the ‘simple’(in comparison with the magnification Jesus gave) law already given at the mountain. God sent prophets to tell them and they ignored them.

Israel back then, and ‘Christians’ now, think they know exactly what God wants based on His law. The reason for the law is to show mankind their fallen state.

Click to expand...

dqhall said:

Many businesses in Israel close early Friday afternoon to prepare for Shabbat. The hospitals in Israel are open on Shabbat. The gas stations are open on Shabbat. The military is alert and ready for mobilization on Shabbat. The airport is open on Shabbat, even on Yom Kippur. Most stores and businesses are closed for Shabbat. I would not suggest Jews should work on their one day off.

The Haredim might get shunned, if they are caught working on Shabbat. They close off their neighborhoods to traffic for 24 hours.

Click to expand...

Yes and? Are you agreeing with my post or disagreeing? Yeshua did not break Shabbat by healing on Shabbat...

GraceBro said:

There was no sin in the world when God told them not to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. They had the Holy Spirit indwelling them and they still disobeyed God. They were naked, lol! Yet, we think that in a fallen world, in sinful bodies, and with the Holy Spirit, we are going to obey 613 laws? Good luck. Besides, the Christian life is more than just getting our flesh in order. It is about knowing our God. The law can't do that nor will it result in knowing our God. If you think you can be fully obedient to the law, go ahead. I choose to rest in God's work on my behalf and get to know Him through the indwelling Holy Spirit.

Click to expand...

No one person ever had to or could obey all "613"...

Clare73 said:

So you're saying instead of calling it Passover (Unleavened Bread), or Feast of Weeks, or Feast of Trumpets, or Feast of Tabernacles,
they just called them Sabbaths

Click to expand...

Hmmm let's read Lev 23 and see if they call them "sabbaths" just so there is no confusion...

Lev 23

2 “Speak to the sons of Israel and say to them, ‘The Lord’s appointed times which you shall proclaim as holy convocations—My appointed times are these:

3 Six days shall work be done: but the seventh day is the Sabbath of rest, an holy convocation; ye shall do no work therein: it is the Sabbath of the Lord in all your dwellings. (KJV)


26 And the Lord spoke to Moses, saying: 27 “Also the tenth day of this seventh month shall be the Day of Atonement. It shall be a holy convocation for you; you shall afflict your souls, and offer an offering made by fire to the Lord. 28 And you shall do no work on that same day, for it is the Day of Atonement,.... 32 It shall be to you a sabbath of solemn rest, and you shall afflict your souls; on the ninth day of the month at evening, from evening to evening, you shall celebrate your sabbath.”

37 ‘These are the feasts of the Lord which you shall proclaim to be holy convocations, to offer an offering made by fire to the Lord, a burnt offering and a grain offering, a sacrifice and drink offerings, everything on its day— 38 besides the Sabbaths of the Lord, besides your gifts, besides all your vows, and besides all your freewill offerings which you give to the Lord.

Clare73 said:

and, therefore, Col 2:16 does not refer to the weekly Sabbath?

Click to expand...

The weekly Sabbath is a memorial of creation week - events that had no sin and no animal sacrifice.

Ex 20:8-11 "Remember the Sabbath day.. 11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it.

Gen 2:
Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.
2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.
3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

Testimony of Acts 18:4 supports the fact that "every Sabbath" they met for gospel preaching for both Jews and gentiles - those who were believers and those who had yet to believe.

Testimony of Isaiah 66:23 supports the fact that for all eternity after the cross "all mankind" would come before God and bow down in the New earth.

Clare73 said:

But testimony of NT practice (Ac 20:7; 1Co 16:2; Rev 1:10) does not support that.

Click to expand...

Acts 20:7 does not mention "do not take God's name in vain" and does not mention "love your neighbor as yourself" nor even "honor your father and mother"... it is not a text for deleting scripture. It only mentions that "one time" they were gathered in the evening of what they call in Acts 20:7 "week day 1" to break bread and have gospel preaching since the following day part of week-day-1 Paul was leaving. Nothing here about "ever week day 1 we bid farewell to Paul" or "every week day 1 we meet". No doubt they did meet once - on week-day-1 in Acts 20:7

1Co 16:2 does not say that they rested on week-day-1 only that each person saved up funds by himself at home - on what they were still calling "week-day-1". Nothing there is "week-day-1 is the Lord's day" or "week-day-1 is a weekly day for meeting" or "meet on each week-day-1" etc.

Rev 1:10 - does not tell us which day of the week is "The Lord's Day" all we have for that is "the Sabbath - The Holy Day of the Lord" Isaiah 58:13 - which is The Sabbath, and also Mark 2:28 "The Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath" -- no other text assigns a day to that term.

The Sabbath was not given to man for rest in Ge 2:1-3.

According to the Bible it was - and also according to scholars of almost every Christian denomination on planet Earth.

for example:

The Baptist Confession of Faith,
the Westminster Confession of Faith ,
D.L. Moody,
R.C Sproul,
Matthew Henry,
Thomas Watson
Eastern Orthodox Catechism
The Catholic Catechism

to list a few.

Clare73 said:

And you left out
3) Heb 4:1-11, v.9, where the Sabbath was a shadow of the things to come (Sabbath-rest in Christ for the people of God, v.9), while
the reality (rest from our own works to save ourselves, v.10) is found in Christ, not in a day of the week.

The Sabbath is fulfilled in Christ (Heb 4:9-11).

Click to expand...

1. No text says "The Sabbath was fulfilled in Christ"
2. No text says "the Sabbath was a shadow of things to come"
3. Heb 4:9 9 Consequently, there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God.

"Remains" from when ? Heb 4:9 has it remaining as it was at the time of David.

Clare73 said:

Christian records from the first century (Didache) show Sunday as the day of assembly.

Click to expand...

1. No Christian records from the first century show week-day-1 as a weekly day of rest and worship.
2. Didache is of unknown date and authorship


"Many scholars have dated the text to the late 2nd century CE, a view still held today, other scholars have the Didache might go back to the first century. The document is a composite work, and the discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls with its Manual of Discipline provided evidence of development over a considerable period of time, beginning as a Jewish catechetical work which was then developed into a church manual. Additionally, apart from two minuscule fragments, the Greek text of the Didache has only survived in a single manuscript, the Codex Hierosolymitanus. Dating the document is thus made difficult both by the lack of hard evidence and its composite character. The Didache may have been compiled in its present form as late as 150,

Some feel more comfortable with “The Didache a Christian manual compiled before 300AD.”

Even then - we have not Bible text saying "week-day-1 is the Lord's Day" - which would be a great statement to make in the Bible of one were going to introduce such a doctrine in scripture.

Maria Billingsley said:

Let us know if and when you are able to keep all 613 Mitzot. Be blessed.

Click to expand...

It's not a game on keeping how many, but a state of being that seeks to please God.

Yeshua HaDerekh said:

No one person ever had to or could obey all "613"...

Click to expand...

And so then what of the 1050 commands in the NT?

http://www.abc.net.au/reslib/201407/r1308729_17984331.pdf

Is there some sort of "limit" that tradition has placed on God?

Religiot said:

You seem to greatly misunderstand how Satan lies: do you not know that he tried to deceive the Lord by quoting actual scripture?

With respect, man knows good from evil by intuition, very much like he knows that black is not white by the same.

This knowledge is now inherent to man, and is fully available after he matures.

It is also by intuition that any man knows that there is a God.

Intuition is inherent knowledge: the knowledge of good and evil, is by definition, inherent.

--Knowing black and white, is equal to knowing black from white; so too is this true of good and evil.

Click to expand...

Interesting. I know fully how Satan is a liar. He was using Scripture in his lie.

You avoided the question though. Maybe I could ask the same question regarding Jesus.

Did Satan tell Jesus the truth?

Regarding the conjunction versus preposition, knowing of something is not the knowing it.

For example, my name is Nathan. You now know my name, but you don’t know me - or the difference between me and another Nathan. You could make a lot of pretty good assumptions about me - which may or may not be true - but you would still not know all there is to know about me - and all the differences between me and the other.

Adam and Eve knew there was evil after eating, they understood there was evil as evidenced by their actions, but they did not know evil from good.

Look no further than their actions. If they actually knew good from evil, they would not have hid. Sin confuses the mind.

Again, you’ll never find where mankind is said to be able to discern good from evil. Only in Christ, by the power of the Spirit, is man able to do it now.

BobRyan said:

And so then what of the 1050 commands in the NT?

http://www.abc.net.au/reslib/201407/r1308729_17984331.pdf

Is there some sort of "limit" that tradition has placed on God?

Click to expand...

We were talking about the "613". Are you a woman Bob?

Nathan@work said:

Interesting. I know fully how Satan is a liar. He was using Scripture in his lie.

You avoided the question though. Maybe I could ask the same question regarding Jesus.

Did Satan tell Jesus the truth?

Click to expand...

Some people think so - but Jesus said Satan was a liar.

Nathan@work said:

Adam and Eve knew there was evil after eating, they understood there was evil as evidenced by their actions,

Click to expand...

If the only way to know about the atom bomb was to have one dropped on you - then we would never know it - since nobody can survive that.

If the only way to know that someone would die if exposed to the vacuum of space is to be shoved out of the space station without any protection - then only the dead would really "know" it. At least for a few seconds before they died.

Every day life tells us that there is no such thing as having to shoot yourself before you can actually know that shooting yourself will be a bad thing.

Maria Billingsley said:

Let us know if and when you are able to keep all 613 Mitzot. Be blessed.

Click to expand...

No one person ever could or was ever supposed to keep all "613"

Yeshua HaDerekh said:

We were talking about the "613". Are you a woman Bob?

Click to expand...

So then you like the 1050 but you don't like the 613?? Is the Bible about picking out the parts that "you like"

Clare73 said:

New commandment: Jn 13:34, 15:12; Mt 5:23-47, 12:7-8, 19:9, 21:23-27; chp 23.

Click to expand...

Those are not new. God has always wanted us to love each other.

They are ‘re-freshed’. In other words, Jesus was emphasizing them - under the new revelation of Him - giving them a deeper understanding.

Yeshua HaDerekh said:

No one person ever could or was ever supposed to keep all "613"

Click to expand...

Rom 8:4-12 says that only wicked "do not submit to the Law of God and neither indeed CAN they"

But I see now that you are not talking about refusing to comply with something - you are talking about a law that does not apply because it only applies to men or only applies to a woman or only applies to a priest.

Even so those it does not apply to - are not breaking that law by definition.

SkyWriting said:

In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete.
And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

Click to expand...

SkyWriting said:

The commandments are all obsolete. There is a new promise with new rules.

Click to expand...

You conflate the old covenant with God's laws, they are not the same: the old covenant was the administration of death, where payment had to be made; the new administration is the administration of life, where payment is already made, thus it is now by grace.

Christ is the new Administrator of God's laws:

THE ADMINISTRATION OF THE LAW IS NOW TRANSLATED TO CHRIST

"If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron? For the priesthood being changed*, there is made of necessity a change* also of the law." --Hebrews 7:11-12

*change, not in form, but transfered, that is, from one to another, viz:

Strong's:
3331 metathesis met-ath'-es-is from 3346; transposition, i.e. transferral

3346 metatithemi met-at-ith'-ay-mee from 3326 and 5087; to transfer, i.e. (literally) transport, (by implication) exchange, (reflexively) change sides, or (figuratively) pervert:--carry over, change, remove, translate, turn. see GREEK for 3326 see GREEK for 5087

"translatio" -E. Jerome -Heb 7:12 (L. Vulgate) [c.405]

"translacioun" -J. Wycliffe -Heb 7:12 (Wycliffe B.) [c.1395]

"translated" -W. Tyndale -Heb 7:12 (Tyndale B.) [1525/1530]

"traspasamiento" -C. de Reina -Heb 7:12 (B. del Oso) [1569]


Full Citation:

"translato enim sacerdotio necesse est ut et legis translatio fiat" -Hebrews 7:12, The Latin Vulgate, c.405 AD, Translator: Eusibius Jerome

"For whi whanne the preesthod is translatid, it is nede that also translacioun of the lawe be maad." -Hebrews 7:12, The Wycliff Bible, c.1395 AD, Translator: John Wycliff

"Now no dout yf the presthod be translated then of necessitie must the lawe be translated also." -Hebrews 7:12, The Tyndale Bible, 1525/1530 AD, Translator: William Tyndale

"Pues traspasado el sacerdocio, necesario es que se haga también traspasamiento de la Ley." -Hebrews 7:12, La Biblia Del Oso, 1569 AD, Translator: Casiodoro de Reina


Translation /Trans·la´tion/ (?), n. [F. translation, L. translatio a transferring, translation, version. See Translate, and cf. Tralation.] 1. The act of translating, removing, or transferring; removal; also, the state of being translated or removed; as, the translation of Enoch; the translation of a bishop.
--Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary of the English Language [1913]

The law was not abolished, but transferred, from the old covenant, to the new: the law is eternal, and unchanging, as Christ is. Amen.