Removing the laws of God- what does it really mean?

Leaf473 · Apr 12, 2021

imge said:
I understand your post perfectly, but you cannot take a sentence out of the passage Jesus was talking about otherwise you lose context.

What is our goal when reading the Bible? For me, I want to learn about God. When I look around me I see God everywhere. In the birds, the trees, my pets, my child, my spouse, the clouds, the rain, the storms, the plants, the gardens and all the blessings I receive each day. God is with me in good times and bad times. He has personally and literally saved my life more than once. He also sent His son to die for my sins (and everyone else). I read the Bible because I want to learn more about God. To understand what His will is for my life. Once I completely surrendered my will, I am allowing God to lead my life. For me when I read the scriptures and Words God left for us, my goal is to be with Him in Heaven. Where I can speak with Him face to face for eternity. I believe He has wonderful things in store for His saved ones.

When reading what Jesus said in the scriptures this is what I get out of it. (scripture posted again for reference).

Mathew 5:17 “Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. 18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. 19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.

To me the verse that jumps out at me as a condition.

19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Jesus did not come to destroy the law and fulfill does not mean destroy, so whoever therefore (this would not make sense if God's laws didn't matter).

Jesus is telling us how we can be called great in heaven. Is that not our goal? He is very clear and specific.

Here is the condition

Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven;

but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Do you want Jesus to call you great in heaven? I'm not sure why more people don't take these verses to heart. Both have consequences. Those who does (an action) and teaches others- will be called great in the kingdom of heaven, but Whoever therefore breaks (action) one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven;

These scriptures ties in with Mathew 19:17, Revelations 22:14

God bless

I agree that you cannot take a sentence out of context. Within the context of a passage, every sentence has meaning.

I'll try asking the question a different way. This sentence below:

"For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled."

within the context of the passage, does it mean to you that as of today no part of the law has passed away from the law?

What is our goal when reading the Bible?

My goal is to gain wisdom about God.

SabbathBlessings · Apr 12, 2021

Leaf473 said:
I agree that you cannot take a sentence out of context. Within the context of a passage, every sentence has meaning.

I'll try asking the question a different way. This sentence below:

"For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled."

within the context of the passage, does it mean to you that as of today no part of the law has passed away from the law?

does it mean to you that as of today no part of the law has passed away from the law?

Click to expand...

My goal is to gain wisdom about God.

does it mean to you that as of today no part of the law has passed away from the law?

I think you keep wanting to put a square peg in a round hole. Jesus did not come to destroy God's laws. The only laws that ended because Jesus is our sacrificial lamb are the ceremonial laws (burnt offerings, blood sacrifices etc.) No other laws have ended.

Previously you agreed, God's moral laws are eternal and ceremonial laws ended. Are we on the same page?

pescador · Apr 12, 2021

imge said:
(QUOTE) does it mean to you that as of today no part of the law has passed away from the law? (/QUOTE)

I think you keep wanting to put a square peg in a round hole. Jesus did not come to destroy God's laws. The only laws that ended because Jesus is our sacrificial lamb are the ceremonial laws (burnt offerings, blood sacrifices etc.) No other laws have ended.

Previously you agreed, God's moral laws are eternal and ceremonial laws ended. Are we on the same page?

You wrote, "The only laws that ended because Jesus is our sacrificial lamb are the ceremonial laws (burnt offerings, blood sacrifices etc.) No other laws have ended."

Why do you think that the OT Law applies to those who are dead to the law but alive to God in Christ Jesus?

Galatians 3:22-24, "But the scripture imprisoned everything under sin so that the promise could be given—because of the faithfulness of Jesus Christ—to those who believe.

Now before faith came we were held in custody under the law, being kept as prisoners until the coming faith would be revealed. Thus the law had become our guardian until Christ, so that we could be declared righteous by faith.

SabbathBlessings · Apr 12, 2021

pescador said:
You wrote, "The only laws that ended because Jesus is our sacrificial lamb are the ceremonial laws (burnt offerings, blood sacrifices etc.) No other laws have ended."

Why do you think that the OT Law applies to those who are dead to the law but alive to God in Christ Jesus?

Galatians 3:22-24, "But the scripture imprisoned everything under sin so that the promise could be given—because of the faithfulness of Jesus Christ—to those who believe.

Now before faith came we were held in custody under the law, being kept as prisoners until the coming faith would be revealed. Thus the law had become our guardian until Christ, so that we could be declared righteous by faith.

Faith does not void out the law which Paul make pretty clear, Romans 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law. Paul goes on to say what matters is 1 Corinthians 7:19 Circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing, but keeping the commandments of God is what matters.

Which is why God's saints keep both the faith and the commandments. Revelations 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.

God bless

pescador · Apr 12, 2021

imge said:
Faith does not void out the law which Paul make pretty clear, Romans 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law. Paul goes on to say what matters is 1 Corinthians 7:19 Circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing, but keeping the commandments of God is what matters.

Which is why God's saints keep both the faith and the commandments. Revelations 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.

God bless

Please read my "signature" regarding eisegesis. You quote Romans 3:31 out of context. Yet three verses prior Paul wrote, "For we consider that a person is declared righteous by faith apart from the works of the law."

You might want to pay attention to what Romans 7:4-6 says, "So, my brothers and sisters, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, so that you could be joined to another, to the one who was raised from the dead, to bear fruit to God. For when we were in the flesh, the sinful desires, aroused by the law, were active in the members of our body to bear fruit for death. But now we have been released from the law, because we have died to what controlled us, so that we may serve in the new life of the Spirit and not under the old written code."

Aside from taking single verses to prove universal doctrine, which anyone can do with little effort, why do you think that Christ died? It was to free us from the tyranny of the law and to bring us into a new life in the body of Christ, as God's beloved children.

SabbathBlessings · Apr 12, 2021

106

pescador said:
Please read my "signature" regarding eisegesis. You quote Romans 3:31 out of context. Yet three verses prior Paul wrote, "For we consider that a person is declared righteous by faith apart from the works of the law."

You might want to pay attention to what Romans 7:4 says, "So, my brothers and sisters, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, so that you could be joined to another, to the one who was raised from the dead, to bear fruit to God."

Aside from taking single verses to prove universal doctrine, which anyone can do with little effort, why do you think that Christ died? It was to free us from the tyranny of the law and to bring us into a new life in the body of Christ, as God's beloved children.

So you think Paul contradicted himself and Jesus? Are we supposed to stop at one verse we like and disregard all other scripture? The Bible is one fluid scripture. It seems you are doing exactly what are are telling others not to do. Something you might want to consider.

pescador · Apr 12, 2021

imge said:
106

So you think Paul contradicted himself and Jesus? Are we supposed to stop at one verse we like and disregard all other scripture? The Bible is one fluid scripture. It seems you are doing exactly what are are telling others not to do. Something you might want to consider.

No, Paul did not contradict himself and Jesus. It seems that way to you because you don't understand what Paul wrote. You are convinced in your own mind -- opposing Scripture -- that Christians are under the Mosaic law. You are 110% wrong!

The New Testament clearly and definitively states that all Christians are totally free from the Mosaic law. To state the opposite is to deny the salvific work of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

I will not discuss this any further with you. READ YOUR BIBLE!

Leaf473 · Apr 12, 2021

imge said:
(QUOTE) does it mean to you that as of today no part of the law has passed away from the law? (/QUOTE)

I think you keep wanting to put a square peg in a round hole. Jesus did not come to destroy God's laws. The only laws that ended because Jesus is our sacrificial lamb are the ceremonial laws (burnt offerings, blood sacrifices etc.) No other laws have ended.

Previously you agreed, God's moral laws are eternal and ceremonial laws ended. Are we on the same page?

With the quoting system, you want to use brackets, not parentheses.

I just had to use parentheses in the example, because if I had used brackets it wouldn't show up.

Let's see if this will work: a bracket looks like this [

That's the "open" bracket. Replace the "open" parentheses with that.

Then there is a corresponding "close" bracket. Replace the "close" parentheses with it.

Leaf473 · Apr 12, 2021

imge said:
I think you keep wanting to put a square peg in a round hole. Jesus did not come to destroy God's laws. The only laws that ended because Jesus is our sacrificial lamb are the ceremonial laws (burnt offerings, blood sacrifices etc.) No other laws have ended.

When you say, "The only laws that ended...",

does that mean to you that as of today some part of the law has passed away from the law?

Previously you agreed, God's moral laws are eternal and ceremonial laws ended. Are we on the same page?

Things may have become confused because at times in the past I had agreed with things for the sake of discussion. Kind of like saying, assuming that this is true, here's where it leads. I thought that would be obvious, but maybe it wasn't.

So here's what I actually think:
None of the laws have passed away. They all remain fully in force. If any of the laws that require physical actions still require those actions, then all of the laws that require physical actions still require those actions. That's because not a jot or a tittle has passed away from the law.

I'm reluctant to go further than that in my explanation because we were doing so well going step by step

So to reiterate, if you say that some laws have ended, do you mean that some parts of the law have passed from the law?

SabbathBlessings · Apr 12, 2021

duplicate

SabbathBlessings · Apr 12, 2021

Leaf473 said:
When you say, "The only laws that ended...",

does that mean to you that as of today some part of the law has passed away from the law?

Things may have become confused because at times in the past I had agreed with things for the sake of discussion. Kind of like saying, assuming that this is true, here's where it leads. I thought that would be obvious, but maybe it wasn't.

So here's what I actually think:
None of the laws have passed away. They all remain fully in force. If any of the laws that require physical actions still require those actions, then all of the laws that require physical actions still require those actions. That's because not a jot or a tittle has passed away from the law.

I'm reluctant to go further than that in my explanation because we were doing so well going step by step

So to reiterate, if you say that some laws have ended, do you mean that some parts of the law have passed from the law?

Maybe you can let me know previously how you concluded the Ten commandments were still a requirement, but blood sacrifices ended.

Leaf473 · Apr 12, 2021

imge said:
Maybe you can let me know previously how you concluded the Ten commandments were still a requirement, but blood sacrifices ended.

The physical requirement of offering blood sacrifices at the temple in Jerusalem has ended. The physical requirements of all of the laws have ended.

What we are to follow is the intention or spirit of the law.

SabbathBlessings · Apr 12, 2021

Leaf473 said:
The physical requirement of offering blood sacrifices at the temple in Jerusalem has ended. The physical requirements of all of the laws have ended.

What we are to follow is the intention or spirit of the law.

So all laws have ended, is that correct? So we can freely murder, or worship idols as we please. Is this what you're saying?

Leaf473 · Apr 12, 2021

imge said:
So all laws have ended, is that correct? So we can freely murder, or worship idols as we please. Is this what you're saying?

This is why I really wanted you to answer the question above: When you say, "The only laws that ended...",

does that mean to you that as of today some part of the law has passed away from the law?

**************

But sure, for now we'll just take it step by step on the path you're going.

No, all the laws have not ended. None of the laws have ended. Not jot or a tittle has passed from the law.

The physical requirements of all of the laws have ended.

What we are to follow is the intention or spirit of the law. So no, we are not free to do as we please.

SabbathBlessings · Apr 12, 2021

Leaf473 said:
This is why I really wanted you to answer the question above: When you say, "The only laws that ended...",

does that mean to you that as of today some part of the law has passed away from the law?

**************

But sure, for now we'll just take it step by step on the path you're going.

No, all the laws have not ended. None of the laws have ended. Not jot or a tittle has passed from the law.

The physical requirements of all of the laws have ended.

What we are to follow is the intention or spirit of the law. So no, we are not free to do as we please.

When you say physical do you mean literal?

Leaf473 · Apr 12, 2021

imge said:
When you say physical do you mean literal?

No. Of course, literal has more than one meaning.

SabbathBlessings · Apr 12, 2021

Leaf473 said:
No. Of course, literal has more than one meaning.

Maybe you can explain what you mean by we no longer have to physically keep the law.

How does that apply to not worshipping other idols for example?

Leaf473 · Apr 12, 2021

imge said:
Maybe you can explain what you mean by we no longer have to physically keep the law.

How does that apply to not worshipping other idols for example?

Today I can look at cave paintings and admire (a form of worship) them. The people that painted them may well have thought they were capturing the spirit, honoring the god of the animal.

In the ancient world many people thought that eating food sacrificed to an idol was a form of worship of that idol. But if you know that the idol is nothing more than a hunk of stone or bronze, then I don't think there's anything wrong with eating food sacrificed to it.

SabbathBlessings · Apr 12, 2021

Leaf473 said:
Today I can look at cave paintings and admire (a form of worship) them. The people that painted them may well have thought they were capturing the spirit, honoring the god of the animal.

In the ancient world many people thought that eating food sacrificed to an idol was a form of worship of that idol. But if you know that the idol is nothing more than a hunk of stone or bronze, then I don't think there's anything wrong with eating food sacrificed to it.

Let's put it in context with God's 2nd commandment Exodus 20:4 “You shall not make for yourself a carved image—any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; 5 you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me, 6 but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.

Literal means we should not bow down to other gods.
Spiritual means we should only serve God-worship Him and not worship other gods

What does physical look like and do you agree we should keep both the literal and the spiritual commandments?

Leaf473 · Apr 12, 2021

imge said:
Let's put it in context with God's 2nd commandment Exodus 20:4 “You shall not make for yourself a carved image—any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; 5 you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me, 6 but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.

Literal means we should not bow down to other gods.
Spiritual means we should only serve God-worship Him and not worship other gods

What does physical look like and do you agree we should keep both the literal and the spiritual commandments?

The physical would look like bowing down in front of a statue.

What do you mean by
"both the literal and the spiritual commandments"?

We should follow all of the literal words of all of the commandments. We are to follow them spiritually.

Does that answer your question?

Removing the laws of God- what does it really mean?

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