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Refuting Sola Scriptura - Why the Bible Alone is Not Sufficient

Do You Adhear to Sola Scriptura?


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Albion

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The Bible compliments tradition because they are one in the same. We know tradition is true from history.

What we know from history is that they are NOT the same. Nor do the "Sola Tradition" churches even claim that.

It is sufficient that some custom or legend not explicitly contradict Scripture for it to be accorded the status of divine revelation (or not) as the particular denomination chooses. As Stephanie Somer has noted, this is far less reliable than Scripture. And the Bible does not make any claims about it being the equal of God's word, either. Or even recognize such a concept as "Sacred Tradition."
 
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StephanieSomer

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Thank you for making my point so efficiently! All those "1,000's" of churches which you mentioned all have their OWN traditions, by which they have twisted Scripture to suit their needs, as you so eloquently put it. Yet, you insist that in this single instance of the Catholic church that tradition has not twisted anything. Quite an accomplishment. However, the real point is that you mentioned their error as being that Scripture was twisted. If Scripture is NOT supreme, why would that matter?
 
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RDKirk

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It's true that tradition can be wrong, and an error of tradition tends to travel an ever-increasing vector. However, it's also true that scripture--the bible that we have--was created by the tradition of the early church. "Sola scripturalists" in these conversations do tend to deny the work of the Holy Spirit in guiding the tradition that led to the bible, and as well deny the continuing work of the Holy Spirit.

If you go back to the original concept of "sola scriptura," it does not make those denials. Some people have coined "solo scripturalism" to define that particular extreme.
 
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Goatee

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Those 1,000s of churches have veered off from the 'True Church of Christ'. They then decided to make up things to suit themselves, unlike the Catholic Church which has stuck to the teachings of the Apostles / Disciples of Christ. The Catholic Church was started by Christ! This is where 'Tradition' in its purest form has remained true!

Its not scripture that is twisted. It is the interpretation of it by these break away factions over the course of history as they refuse to believe in the 'True Church of Christ'.
 
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Chandler50

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The Catholic Church is not a 'single instance'; that is the main difference. The Catholic Church is the original, universal (catholic means universal) church that Christ Himself started on the earth through his apostles. We know this is true because of a documented line of succession directly from the apostles starting all the way back to St. Peter whom Christ alone entrusted with the keys to the kingdom of heaven (ref. Matthew 16:19).
 
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Albion

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It's true that tradition can be wrong, and an error of tradition tends to travel an ever-increasing vector. However, it's also true that scripture--the bible that we have--was created by the tradition of the early church.
No, that's not true. The Church merely recognized the books of Scripture it considered authentic. The churches, i.e. congregations, themselves had long considered them to be inspired. So, no, it's quite incorrect to repeat the old slogan that the Church "created" Holy Scripture.

"Sola scripturalists" in these conversations do tend to deny the work of the Holy Spirit in guiding the tradition that led to the bible
I've not experienced that...and you aren't addressing it here either. To say that Tradition created God's word in Scripture represents a denial that the Holy Ghost had a part in the creation of the Bible books in the first place strikes me as clearly untenable.

I believe the point here was supposed to be to prove that the Bible is not sufficient, not merely to assemble the usual one-liners and throw them at Christians who accept Scripture as their ultimate guide to doctrine.

I'm not seeing much here that qualifies as proof that the Bible is insufficient or that we know what to turn to if it's not.
 
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RDKirk

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But it's highly likely their dispute is over something that is actually irrelevant.

Accept the one whose faith is weak, without quarreling over disputable matters. -- Romans 14

There are "indisputable matters" and there are "disputable matters." Contrary to popular opinion, the set of "disputable matters" in Christianity is actually quite large and the set of "indisputable matters" is actually very small. For instance the basic issues surrounding the "Calvinism vs Arminianism" debate were acknowledged by the second century, yet the Church fathers both recognized the issues and also recognized that they were not issues that should cause division.

For me, the "indisputable matters" are contained in the Apostle's Creed, and I accept as a full brother in Christ anyone who assents to those basic concepts...even if my Catholic brothers have a somewhat different idea of what some of those concepts mean from mine.
 
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RDKirk

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Nobody went up on a mountain and returned with the New Testament on stone tablets inscribed by the finger of God.
 
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Albion

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Very well, but everything in the Apostles' Creed is from the Bible, so this ^ position, while admirable in itself, hardly poses any difficulty for believers in Sola Scriptura or shows us that there's any insufficiency in Scripture. Would you agree?
 
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Albion

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Nobody went up on a mountain and returned with the New Testament on stone tablets inscribed by the finger of God.
And no one says that this happened. It's not part of the debate. It has nothing to do with Sola Scriptura.

So let's just stick to the topic.
 
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Chandler50

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This is false. Most of the early Christian congregations had various books and epistles which they believed were authentic and inspired which are not included in the canon. To this day, the Eastern Orthodox church recognizes a slightly different canon then we observe.

The argument that everyone 'recognized' what was inspired is simply wrong. Read any documents of the early church fathers to see the massive disagreement.

Besides, if you suggest that the church canonized what was already inspired, then why do Protestants adhere to a Bible containing seven less books then what everyone 'already knew' was inspired?
 
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RDKirk

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And no one says that this happened. It's not part of the debate. It has nothing to do with Sola Scriptura.

So let's just stick to the topic.

That is the topic. The New Testament was not written by the direct hand of God. It was written by members of the Church, judged as inspired by members of the Church, taught by members of the Church, copied by members of the Church, and cherished by members of the Church for three hundred years before the Church actually declared a "canon." They declared canon what they had believed by tradition.

That is tradition. That's what tradition is and what tradition means.

It's certainly more traditional than anything that's been developed in this infant entity called the United States.
 
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Albion

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This is false.
No, it's not. It may come as news to you, but it's correct.

It's true that some churches follow a canon that is slightly different from other churches. Some accept books that others do not. But all of those that WERE accepted by the councils were already in use in almost all the churches. The fact of the matter, therefore, is that the institutional church did not "create" the Bible. It only put it's stamp of approval on the books we all now accept.

But that aside, notice what this does to your thesis. You claim that the church invented the Scripture...and then proceed to tell us that there are a number of different compilations used in the different churches. Did the Holy Spirit inspire and guide a different answer for each denomination you had in mind, therefore?

Besides, if you suggest that the church canonized what was already inspired, then why do Protestants adhere to a Bible containing seven less books then what everyone 'already knew' was inspired?
Because there is no reason to assume that the councils in question couldn't have made a mistake. They aren't considered to be Ecumenical Councils by the Catholic churches, so why would anyone think that their choice of books was necessarily infallible? It's really more of a talking point for use in debates like this one than a real issue.

Beyond that, the books of the Apocrypha had ALWAYS been in dispute. The Jews themselves were divided on inclusion of them. The 66 others have not been in such dispute.

And here's the topper to that fact. The Roman Catholic Church changed the listing of books ITSELF after the Protestants had made their changes!
 
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Chandler50

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So you would trust in Martin Luther over all of the early church fathers?

First, the Septuagint is the document used to quote OT in the NT, and it included the Apocryphal books.

Second, you are referring to the Council of Trent and that council simply reaffirmed the canon, it did not change it.
 
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Albion

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That is the topic.
I'm reading the topic sentence now and it says "Refuting Sola Scriptura--Why the Bible Alone is not Sufficient."

Refuting Sola Scriptura. Why it isn't sufficient.

That's the topic.

That is tradition. That's what tradition is and what tradition means.

No, it's not. At least it's not what "Holy Tradition" or "Sacred Tradition"--the purported alternative to God's word in Scripture--means. If the Bible is not sufficient (and I'm still waiting to hear a valid reason why that might be so), let's at least be clear on what is offered as the alternative.
 
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Albion

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So you would trust in Martin Luther over all of the early church fathers?
I'd put my trust in the word of God over some selection of comments from a few men considered to be "Early Church Fathers," yes. Martin Luther is relevant to this matter only to the extent that he is history's most famous defender of the sufficiency of Scripture.

Second, you are referring to the Council of Trent and that council simply reaffirmed the canon, it did not change it.
It was changed. If you are not aware of this, you owe it to yourself to check it out.

Here's the Wikipedia information on this subject:

"In 1592, Pope Clement VIII published his revised edition of the Vulgate, referred to as the Sixto-Clementine Vulgate. He moved three books not found in the canon of the Council of Trent from the Old Testament into an appendix "lest they utterly perish" (ne prorsus interirent).[22]

The protocanonical and deuterocanonical books he placed in their traditional positions in the Old Testament."
 
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Chandler50

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How is this a valid argument? It states in your quote that the Pope Clement VIII moved three books not found in the Council of Trent. We have never added or took away from the Bible after the Council of Rome established the canon. Pope Clement VIII simply placed those writings in the appendix of the Bible so that future generations will be able to enjoy them. Additionally, none of the councils prior decided that order of the books in the canon was of any importance, so the fact the Pope Clement VIII rearranged the order is of no consequence.
 
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Poor Beggar

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Sola scriptura is a protestant invention. Jesus and his apostles quoted tradition. A lot of people don't know that. However, the protestants came up with the idea for a reason. Thd church was going to crazy town. I think the balance is stick to the bible when the bible gives the answer. Use church history to fill in the gaps, recognizing the great men of God were filled with the Holy Spirit in the past. We have to be really careful with church tradition, but protestants need to stop pretending they don't use various councils as tradition. They also quote Reformed writers as if they were special "saints". It's so overdone its sickening.
That's my take.
 
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Poor Beggar

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Until we read Reformed views too heavily into the scriptures without realizing it. No one is truly free from eisegesis.
 
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