Refuting OSAS in jesus name

South Bound · Mar 26, 2015

lori milne said:
In reply I'll start here but start it with give me the ears Lord to understand ! Amen Every verse you've given me states Christ gives us the ability to not fall away!

As I pointed out to you before, you misunderstand the Biblical doctrine of eternal security. You continue to insist that it is our responsibility to keep our salvation. As I've pointed out to you before, it is not. The Bible says our salvation is Christ's to keep.

If you read free from sin and turn it into free to sin then this is an assumed interpolation.

Who says we're free to sin?

why did jesus speak of faith. Faith that in him we can turn from sin. Faith in what if not that? In him maybe .ok then In him but for what? to do what? He gives us something not just believing in him only. That's an empty reason to follow something. he is and was the word so we are believing in a promise. In the word. The law. The punishment. The judgements. His love. All of the word.

If you see your view of Jesus saving us because we are sinners and so we can live in sin and be COVARD this is an assumed understanding based off a multiple meaning verses!

Who has suggested this?

If your assumed meaning is correct

Please do tell us what my "assumed meaning" is.

Then what don't you see in a clear and sound verse about not wanting to sin because jesus fills us with water so we may not be thirsty!

I see verses about not wanting to sin because we received a new nature when we were born again.

And how is it weighed against your assumed meaning.[/quoe]

Again, please do feel free to put words in my mouth and tell us what my "assumed meaning" is.

We can do all things in Christ that's even being sin free!

Click to expand...

Then why aren't you sin free?

Are you saying in Christ we can't be sin free if his word says we can?

Click to expand...

I'm saying that His Word never says we can be sin free, but just the opposite: that we are sinners by nature.

As I pointed out to you before, this is known in Christianity as simul justus et peccator.

ToBeBlessed · Mar 26, 2015

lori milne said:
Every verse you've given me states Christ gives us the ability to not fall away!

And Christ giving us the ability to not do something in NO WAY indicates that one will loose their salvation because of it.

That's where you are reading something in to the Word that IS NOT there. Salvation is the key to our entire faith. If you don't get salvation straight, then almost every other doctrine get's tainted.

That is what we are trying to show you.

ToBeBlessed · Mar 26, 2015

lori milne said:
Let's add THE FAITH portion and then weigh out the versus! why did jesus speak of faith. Faith that in him we can turn from sin. Faith in what if not that? In him maybe .ok then In him but for what? to do what? He gives us something not just believing in him only. That's an empty reason to follow something. he is and was the word so we are believing in a promise. In the word. The law. The punishment. The judgements. His love. All of the word.

Ok, let's add THE FAITH portion and then weigh out the verses.

Faith, saving faith is believing in Jesus Christ. That Jesus is the Savior and that we need saving from sin. Period.

That is the faith one needs to get saved. Period.

We DO NOT have faith in Him that 'we can turn from sin'. We have faith in Him, that because of His death and ressurection that we have died to sin because of what Jesus has done.

What is this death to sin that we have died to sin in Christ Jesus?

We have died to sin in that sin has no dominion over us, BECAUSE the penalty of sin is death. However, Jesus died to overcome sin. Because, in Christ, we are also dead to sin, sin has lost it's dominion over us. Part of sin's dominion is the penalty being death. That's why right after it tells us in Romans 5-8 that we have died to sin in Christ, it also tells us that we are dead to sin, but alive in Christ. Now, just because sin no longer has dominion over us, that does NOT mean that we no longer have sin natures (carnal fleshly natures). That is why we are given the strength of Christ. To overcome our sin natures. But it is still a battle inside of us. And it will be a battle as long as we live on this earth because our sin nature does not leave us, we still battle it, but now we have more strength in Christ to OVERCOME it.

Your questions above in red have nothing to do with salvation.

Those questions have to do with sanctification. Two very different things.

Sanctification is walking with Christ and with His strength and the conviction and prayers of the Holy Spirit becoming more like Christ.

We are in the process of being sanctified our entire lives. That does not end as long as we are on this earth.

lori milne · Mar 26, 2015

ToBeBlessed said:
And Christ giving us the ability to not do something in NO WAY indicates that one will loose their salvation because of it. That's where you are reading something in to the Word that IS NOT there. Salvation is the key to our entire faith. If you don't get salvation straight, then almost every other doctrine get's tainted. That is what we are trying to show you.

I get it it's very clear and answered this one .

You will loose your salvation if you loose your faith in Jesus!
It's clear and not misunderstood

You can loose your salvation by continuing in sin
That's loosing faith in Jesus if he's telling us we will thirst no more !!
That is want to sin

To give knowledge of salvation unto his people by the remission of their sins
Luke 1:77

I get it I just don't get what your misunderstanding ?

ToBeBlessed · Mar 26, 2015

I would just like to add, that it might be more respectful to ask questions than to strike down what we say when we know more about this topic. One who 'thinks' they have all the answers, rarely grows.

I say that in love. http://www.christianforums.com//www.pinterest.com/pin/create/extension/

ToBeBlessed · Mar 26, 2015

lori milne said:
I get it it's very clear and answered this one .

You will loose your salvation if you loose your faith in Jesus!
It's clear and not misunderstood

What the Word says is that if a person HAS the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, that that person is saved. The indwelling of the Holy Spirit is the believer's guarantee and they have been sealed by the Holy Spirit.

The Word also says that ONLY Jesus is the just and righteous judge, because only Jesus knows a man's heart.

So, in red, I leave that judgement up to Jesus. However, if the person has the Holy Spirit, then they have salvation.

Why do we concern ourselves so much with wondering if others will and are saved? I never understood this.

Let's let God be God. We know from the Word that ONLY HE is just and righteous.

ToBeBlessed · Mar 26, 2015

lori milne said:
You can loose your salvation by continuing in sin
That's loosing faith in Jesus if he's telling us we will thirst no more !!
That is want to sin

You CANNOT loose your salvation by continuing in sin. Jesus' promise is that HE will NEVER LEAVE US or FORSAKE US.

What we do, does not change Jesus' promise.

Jesus makes perfect promises and does NOT go back on them.

Our sin is NOT POWERFUL enough to remove what Jesus HAS DONE.

The second part of your statement is the part of scripture where Jesus tells us that in Him we will thirst no more. Thirst is when you need water to satisfy your thirst.

In Christ, we need nothing. All our needs are met. If we choose to not be obedient, we still have all we need in Christ and our needs (spiritually) are met.

So in Christ we do not thirst spiritually. Because Christ is the all. To thirst you need more. There is no more than Christ.

The same with Jesus saying I am the bread of life, He who comes to me shall not hunger. Spiritually, Jesus is all we need. In Jesus, all our needs spiritually have been met.

ToBeBlessed · Mar 26, 2015

South Bound said:
You seem to misunderstand the Biblical doctrine of eternal security.

You talk about the Biblical doctrine of eternal security as if it's something we earn after salvation by proving ourselves worthy.

That's not the case at all. We're not saved by our own righteousness, but by Christ's righteousness, and our salvation is not kept by our faithfulness, but by Christ's faithfulness and ability to keep that which the Father has given Him.

If one is born again, then his salvation is secure in Christ's hands.

I would encourage you to think long and hard about the consequences of rejecting the Biblical doctrine of eternal security for a moment. If we could really lose our salvation, then Hebrews 6:4-6 says that if we ever sin after being saved, we'll be lost forever with no way back, because the Lord would have to be crucified all over again to retrieve us. That means that it would only take one sin to fall away.

To deny the Biblical doctrine of eternal security, you must believe that, if one sin before we're saved was enough to condemn us, one sin after we're saved is enough to condemn us, as well. Doesn't this make the New Covenant worse than the Old? Under the Old Covenant, the Israelites were condemned for their actions, but we'd be condemned for our thoughts.

Under the Old Covenant, under the law, the Israelites couldn't murder. We can't even be angry. They couldn't commit adultery. We can't even have a lustful thought. If you're right, then we lose our salvation by doing less in following the law than the Israelites did under the law!

Is this really the Good News of Jesus Christ? Are these the riches of His Grace, that we have to live in fear of sinning? Are we saved by grace only to be placed under the constraints of an even more severely administered law?

But, back to your question, there are a host of verses that support the Biblical doctrine of eternal security.

Let's start with the most obvious:

So, here we have three promises:

a) That Jesus will not lose those the Father has given Him.

b) That Jesus will not cast out any who come to Him

That precludes both the sinner losing his salvation and Jesus taking his salvation away. So what means is left to lose salvation?

c) That God has already promised they would be raised on the last day.

Does God now break His promises?

And that's only the beginning. There is plenty of evidence for the Biblical doctrine of eternal security after that. For instance...

Romans 8:29-30 says that God predestined those whom He foreknew to be conformed to the image of Christ. If we can lose our salvation and, thus, our conformity to the image of Christ, then does this mean that God's foreknowledge is wrong? That's open theism, which has historically been condemned as heresy by the Church.

Jude 24 says that Christ is able to keep us from falling? If we can lose our salvation, does this mean that Christ is able to keep us from falling, but is merely unwilling? How is that consistent with the Biblical description of Christ?

Colossians 3:1-4 says that if we have been saved, we will appear with Christ in glory? It doesn't say "you might appear with Christ in glory, if you don't lose your salvation". It says "you will appear with Christ in glory". Done deal.

Philippians 1:6 says that if Christ has begun a good work in us, that He will finish it. How does He keep that promise to finish the good work He began in you, if you can lose your salvation?

1 Peter 1:23 tells us that when we are born again, we are born of incorruptible seed? If we can lose our salvation, then this seed is corruptible and that promise is not true.

Like Colossians 3:1-4, 1 John 3:2 says that we are sons of God now and that when Christ appears, we will be like Him. There is no qualifier. There is no "...if we don't lose our salvation". And if we're sons of God, when has God ever disowned a son?

Titus 1:2 says that God has promised us eternal life and that He never breaks a promise.

In John 10:27-29, Jesus promises us that He has given us eternal life, that we will never perish, and that we are not only in His hands, but in the Father's hands. How is Jesus' promise in John 10:27-28 consistent with the idea that we can lose our salvation? Is Jesus really incompetent to keep those whom the Father has given Him?

John 5:24 says that if we are saved, we will not come into condemnation but will have eternal life? How can Jesus promise that we will not come into condemnation if He knows we can lose our salvation?

Romans 11:6 tells us that salvation is not by works. If we cannot be saved by works, then how can we lose our salvation by works? Furthermore, why isn't keeping our salvation a work?

John 14:16-17 tells us that when we are saved, the Holy Spirit indwells us forever. How can the Holy Spirit indwell in us forever if we lose our salvation? Since when does the Holy Spirit dwell in the unsaved?

Ephesians 1:13, 4:30 tells us that we are sealed unto the day of redemption. If we lose our salvation, then how can we still claim to be sealed?

1 Peter 1:4 says that our salvation is "imperishable, undefiled, and unfading". If our salvation is imperishable, how can we lose it? If our salvation is promised by God to be undefiled, how can we defile it?

It's been my experience that where you find a denial of the Biblical doctrine of Eternal Security, just scratch the surface and you'll find a belief in works-righteousness.

Again, I ask, is this really the Good News of Jesus Christ? Are these the riches of His Grace, that we have to live in fear of sinning? Are we saved by grace only to be placed under the constraints of an even more severely administered law?

Yes!

lori milne · Mar 26, 2015

ToBeBlessed said:
Yes!

So then are we free from sin or free to sin?

South Bound · Mar 26, 2015

lori milne said:
So then are we free from sin or free to sin?

Free from the law of sin and death.

Romans 8 said:
1There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.a 2For the law of the Spirit of life has set youb free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death. 3For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin,c he condemned sin in the flesh, 4in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit. 6For to set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace. 7For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to Gods law; indeed, it cannot. 8Those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

9You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him. 10But if Christ is in you, although the body is dead because of sin, the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11If the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised Christ Jesusd from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit who dwells in you.

Heirs with Christ

12So then, brothers,e we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. 13For if you live according to the flesh you will die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. 14For all who are led by the Spirit of God are sonsf of God. 15For you did not receive the spirit of slavery to fall back into fear, but you have received the Spirit of adoption as sons, by whom we cry, Abba! Father! 16The Spirit himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, 17and if children, then heirsheirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, provided we suffer with him in order that we may also be glorified with him.

Future Glory

18For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worth comparing with the glory that is to be revealed to us. 19For the creation waits with eager longing for the revealing of the sons of God. 20For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of him who subjected it, in hope 21that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to corruption and obtain the freedom of the glory of the children of God. 22For we know that the whole creation has been groaning together in the pains of childbirth until now. 23And not only the creation, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies. 24For in this hope we were saved. Now hope that is seen is not hope. For who hopes for what he sees? 25But if we hope for what we do not see, we wait for it with patience.

26Likewise the Spirit helps us in our weakness. For we do not know what to pray for as we ought, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words. 27And he who searches hearts knows what is the mind of the Spirit, becauseg the Spirit intercedes for the saints according to the will of God. 28And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good,h for those who are called according to his purpose. 29For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

Gods Everlasting Love

31What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can bei against us? 32He who did not spare his own Son but gave him up for us all, how will he not also with him graciously give us all things? 33Who shall bring any charge against Gods elect? It is God who justifies. 34Who is to condemn? Christ Jesus is the one who diedmore than that, who was raisedwho is at the right hand of God, who indeed is interceding for us.j 35Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or danger, or sword? 36As it is written,

For your sake we are being killed all the day long;
we are regarded as sheep to be slaughtered.

37No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. 38For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, 39nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.

lori milne · Mar 26, 2015

South Bound said:
Free from the law of sin and death.

It's either or it can't be changed
If we are free to sin then he blotted out are sins in vein .
If it's free from sin he came take away are sin!

Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness Romans 6:18
KJV
For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness
Romans 6:20 KJV

lori milne · Mar 26, 2015

lori milne said:
It's either or it can't be changed If we are free to sin then he blotted out are sins in vein . If it's free from sin he came take away are sin! Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness Romans 6:18 KJV For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness Romans 6:20 KJV

Anyways why are you changing my question lol

This sin free card isn't free in fact it comes with a hidden fee
That's you loose your salvation

ToBeBlessed · Mar 26, 2015

lori milne said:
So then are we free from sin or free to sin?

Neither.

That must be your understanding.

Before sin, Adam and Eve communed with God in the garden.

When sin came into the picture, that separated God and man.

Sin, having been conquered and the sin debt of all mankind, being paid in full by Jesus Christ, is for those who are saved not separating God and man anymore.

Through Christ, man and God are again reconciled.

It is really not about sin. You keep bringing sin back into it. I am talking about salvation. What Jesus did. What through Christ is available to us. I am speaking about why Once Saved Always Saved is about what CHRIST HAS DONE, not about what we do.

Are you not understanding that salvation is about what Christ has done?

HE has extended grace to us. Grace is unmerited favor that the person has done nothing to deserve. Salvation is about grace and our needing only faith to believe that Jesus is God and that He died for our sins and is our Savior from the penalty of sin.

ToBeBlessed · Mar 26, 2015

Originally Posted by South Bound

Free from the law of sin and death.

lori milne said:
It's either or it can't be changed
If we are free to sin then he blotted out are sins in vein .
If it's free from sin he came take away are sin!

Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness Romans 6:18
KJV
For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness
Romans 6:20 KJV

You just substantiated what he said and what you disagreed with.

We are righteous BECAUSE OF CHRIST, not because we do not sin.

No one said 'we are free to sin'. You said that, no one else.

Please refute what was ACTUALLY said. That is fair and just. We have been patient with your re-wording our words, but that is not right.

ToBeBlessed · Mar 26, 2015

lori milne said:
Anyways why are you changing my question lol

This sin free card isn't free in fact it comes with a hidden fee
That's you loose your salvation

You are the only one who talked about a sin free card.

No one else said that.

Why are you putting accusations into our conversation. I thought you wanted to talk Bible. That is what you requested, so we are sharing verses. Sin free card is not in the Bible.

lori milne · Mar 26, 2015

ToBeBlessed said:
Originally Posted by South Bound Free from the law of sin and death. You just substantiated what he said and what you disagreed with. We are righteous BECAUSE OF CHRIST, not because we do not sin. No one said 'we are free to sin'. You said that, no one else. Please refute what was ACTUALLY said. That is fair and just. We have been patient with your re-wording our words, but that is not right.

So why does jesus ask us to be perfect like him!
It sin no more!
Is this a contradiction?

Hen 10:15-18 says what you like to hear !!

Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before, This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them; And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more. Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin

Hebrew 10:26 says what you don't like to hear!!

For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins
Hebrews‬ [bless and do not curse]10‬:[bless and do not curse]15-18, 26‬ KJV

Contradiction or multiple meaning that your misinterpreting?

ToBeBlessed · Mar 26, 2015

lori milne said:
Hebrew 10:26 says what you don't like to hear!!

For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins
Hebrews‬ [bless and do not curse]10‬:[bless and do not curse]15-18, 26‬ KJV

Contradiction or multiple meaning that your misinterpreting?

Hebrews 10:25-27
not forsaking our own assembling together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another; and all the more as you see the day drawing near. 26For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27but a terrifying expectation of judgment and THE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES.

This is for the Christian who is committing total and unconvicted apostasy after being convicted by the Holy Spirit. This is a stern, stern warning to bring them back to God and for them to realize that they need a Savior.

Did you miss where it says "but a terrifying expectation of judgment"?

Note that expectation means what is to be EXPECTED, expected is the future tense if something is done.

lori milne · Mar 26, 2015

According to the book it was for the Hebrews and they were Jews converted but then they went back and started to do blood offerings at the temples again.
Falling back into the law was willfully sinning according to Paul

ToBeBlessed · Mar 26, 2015

lori milne said:
According to the book it was for the Hebrews and they were Jews converted but then they went back and started to do blood offerings at the temples again.
Falling back into the law was willfully sinning according to Paul

Do you have scripture that says that? That the verse was for Hebrews that went back to do blood offerings?

Also, falling back into the Law is not sinning. Do you have scripture for that also. What Jesus said is that If you love your neighbor as yourself you have fulfilled all of the law. I have never heard anyone say that about Paul, though.

lori milne · Mar 26, 2015

ToBeBlessed said:
Do you have scripture that says that? That the verse was for Hebrews that went back to do blood offerings? Also, falling back into the Law is not sinning. Do you have scripture for that also. What Jesus said is that If you love your neighbor as yourself you have fulfilled all of the law. I have never heard anyone say that about Paul, though.

Falling back to the law according to Paul was sinning " sorry correction

Some scholars today believe the document was written to prevent apostasy.[26] Some have interpreted apostasy to mean a number of different things, such as a group of Christians in one sect leaving for another more conservative sect, one of which the author disapproves. Some have seen apostasy as a move from the Christian assembly to pagan ritual. In light of a possibly Jewish-Christian audience, the apostasy in this sense may be in regard to Jewish-Christians leaving the Christian assembly to return to the Jewish synagogue. The author writes, "Let us hold fast to our confession".[4:14]

Refuting OSAS in jesus name

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