FreeGrace2
Senior Veteran
- Nov 15, 2012
- 20,401
- 1,731
- Faith
- Non-Denom
- Marital Status
- Married
- Politics
- US-Constitution
Upvote
0
Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.
This entire post is in error. So I'll just summarize. I've provided clear verses that remove any possibility of losing salvation, and they are sidestepped by those on your side.What does any of this have to do with what I posted?? It is clear HOW Saul died and WHY. Yet, Saul was going to join Samuel the next day in Paradise.
Our salvation has everything to do with the New Covenant. Gods only begotten Son, Jesus is our Savior.
Yes, they are. But not to "maintain" one's salvation. That would mean that we basically are saving ourselves by our own act of belief. No. It is God who saves us. And He saves us based on the fact that we have believed. The use of the aorist tense proves that God doesn't require on-going faith in order for us to stay saved.
We are saved by the blood of the cross. Jesus is our Lord and Master. We come to the Father through Him. It is Jesus who redeems us once we repent from the sins of our past life. We are renewed, washed clean to begin a new life and turn away from our sinful ways. We place our faith in Jesus, and walk in His Spirit, and follow His lead. If not...what would be the purpose of choosing to be reborn, but to walk in the faith.
No it's not. Once saved, we are new creatures, forgiven, justified, saved, given eternal life (which means it lasts forever). There are no verses that indicate that God removes any of these.
I don't believe anyone said God removes anything. It is by our own free will, it is our choice, not His, to abandon our faith. God does not force us to do anything. Including living in the faith.
In fact, eternal life, a gift of God (Rom 6:23) is also irrevocable (Rom 11:29).
Eternal life can only be given to us by the Father.However, and again, this other passage is seen in a very different way then that of an OSAS believer which has been stated over and over again. I think we can move past arguing about what scripture means to OSAS believers, and those who are not.
One CANNOT obtain salvation by their own choice. It is God's plan and therefore CHOICE to save those who believe. We didn't make that choice, as in "Because I am believing in Your Son You MUST save me" kind of thing.
This...I'm sorry is just wrong. We come to Jesus by choice. We accept Him as our Savior by choice. We believe in Him by choice. We remain in our faith by choice. That is why He gave us free will.
It is God's plan to save those who believe. And He keeps His promise.
Correct and
So, because we aren't saved by free will, we cannot lose it by free will.
We don't have free will?
It isn't our choice anyway. God chose to save us. We didn't choose that. All we can to is receive the free gift of eternal life that He offers to us. And once received, that gift is IRREVOCABLE. That means we can't lose it, give it back, forfeit it, abandon it, etc.
This is repetitive...just saying...
Yes, there is a lot of apostasy. But nothing in Scripture that says that those who abandon the faith will lose their salvation.
Again, this is a different understanding of scripture and what the Bible teaches between these two beliefs of salvation. It's already been covered repetitively. Apostasy is what it is.
That is grace, btw. But those who think that salvation can be lost, etc, seem not to have a very firm grip on grace: what it is, what it means, etc.
Here I will allow another to define grace in all it's splendor and glory. I hope you will take a few moments and read it with an open heart.
God Bless
The True Meaning of Grace
BY WAYNE JACKSON
The concept of Gods grace is thrilling beyond words. It shines its brightest, however, against the backdrop of another aspect of our Creators nature that of sacred wrath.
The most common Greek word for wrath is orge. The term occurs 36 times in the New Testament (cf. Romans 1:18; 2:5). Another expression denoting wrath is thymos (18 times; cf. Revelation 16:19; 19:15). Most scholars make some distinction between the terms. Some suggest that thymos is boiling anger, whereas orge reflects an abiding and settled state of mind. Perhaps the two terms in concert denote the intense and sustained disposition of God towards evil, and those who abandon themselves to it.
But wrath, as used of God, does not suggest an impulsive, emotional reaction, as the term frequently does with humans. Rather, divine wrath is the reflection of a deliberate and measured reaction of a perfectly holy Being toward sin a response that is entirely consistent with the righteous nature of a loving God. Standing over against the starkness of sacred wrath, is the dazzling concept of grace.
Grace Defined
Grace derives from the Greek, charis. In secular Greek, charis was related to chairo, to rejoice. As far back as Homer it denoted sweetness or attractiveness. It came to signify favor, goodwill, and lovingkindness especially as granted by a superior to an inferior.
In the New Testament, grace (156 times) takes on a special redemptive sense in which God makes available his favor on behalf of sinners, who actually do not deserve it.
There is tremendous emphasis in the New Testament upon the fact that human salvation is the result of Heavens grace. This beautiful truth should never be minimized. At the same time, it must not be perverted. Unfortunately, much too often those with only a superficial concept of grace have hijacked the term and foisted upon it a sense alien to scriptural teaching. Let us consider some of the precious Bible truths associated with the concept of salvation by grace.
Encompassing Grace
Gods grace has been offered to the entire human family. For the grace of God hath appeared, bringing salvation to all men . . . (Titus 2:11). This cannot mean that every soul will be saved. Such a conclusion would contradict numerous other passages.
What this does suggest is that Heavens grace is potentially available to all who care to access it by means of the divine plan of redemption (cf. Romans 5:1; 6:3-4,17). This reality is in direct conflict with the Calvinistic notion that God, before the foundation of the world, chose only specific persons to be recipients of his grace.
The Grace/Knowledge Connection
The access to Gods grace is by means of an objective body of revelation. Paul noted: For the grace of God hath appeared . . . instructing us . . . (Titus 2:11-12). Christianity is a taught religion. Isaiah, speaking of the messianic age, exclaimed: . . . he will teach us of his ways . . . (2:3). Jesus himself declared: It is written in the prophets, And they shall all be taught of God. Every one that hath heard from the Father, and has learned, comes unto me (John 6:45).
Gods grace is not dispensed apart from an instruction that requires both understanding and obedience. In these days when there is a tendency to stampede folks into the church, with minimal comprehension of what they are doing, this is a crucial matter to emphasize.
Conditional Grace
The reception of Gods grace is conditional. Calvinism erroneously asserts that grace is bestowed unconditionally by the sovereign will of God. The Bible negates this concept.
The principle is illustrated by the example of Noah, who found grace in the eyes of the Lord (Genesis 6:8); and yet, as the writer of Hebrews shows, the patriarch and his family were saved by preparing an ark in obedience to Gods instruction (11:7; cf. Genesis 6:22). Jehovah proffered the grace. Noah, by faith, obeyed the Lord, and so was blessed. While God extends grace, human beings must be willing to receive the favor (2 Corinthians 6:1).
Grace Is Not Earned
Grace excludes merit. We must constantly remind ourselves that humanity is not deserving of salvation. No one can earn pardon by works of human merit. If such were the case, we could boast regarding our redemption; however, that is impossible (Ephesians 2:8-9).
Even if one were able to perform everything God commands, he still must regard himself as an unprofitable servant (Luke 17:10). Jesus taught that our sins have put us head-over-heels in debt, and no person has the innate ability to liquidate that obligation (cf. Matthew 18:24-27).
When this concept is truly grasped, service to Almighty God will flow with a freshness and zeal that invigorates the soul. Doubtless a failure to fathom the true significance of grace is the reason many church members are spiritually lethargic.
Accessing Grace
Grace is accessed initially at the point of gospel obedience. It is shocking that so many sincere people are unaware of the fact that grace and obedience are not enemies. Paul affirmed that grace is accessed by faith (Romans 5:1-2; Ephesians 2:8-9). It is not, however, a faith void of loving response to God; it is a faith that acts (James 2:21-26).
Consider this fact. In Ephesians 2:8, the apostle states that one is saved by grace through faith. Later, in the same document, he says that sinners are cleansed by the washing of water with the word (5:26). Saved and cleansed represent the same idea. Further, scholars almost universally acknowledge that the washing is an allusion to baptism. It is clear, therefore, that the reception of grace, by means of the faith system, includes immersion in water.
Again, note that eternal life is the result of grace (cf. grace of life, 1 Peter 3:7, i.e., life resulting from grace). But one experiences that life when he is raised from the water of immersion (Romans 6:4). Heavens grace plan system includes obedience.
To express the matter another way, Christ saves us, through the washing of regeneration [acknowledged to be a reference to baptism], and the renewing of the Holy Spirit (Titus 3:5). Yet this is equivalent to being justified by his grace (v. 7). Obedience and grace do not stand in opposition to one another.
Continuing in Grace
The state of grace must be embraced continuously; otherwise one will fall from divine favor, and his initial reception of Heavens grace will have been in vain (2 Corinthians 6:1; cf. 1 Corinthians 15:10).
It is incredible that many, who identify themselves with Christianity, should contend that it is impossible for the Christian to fall from Gods grace.
If one cannot fall out of grace, why did Paul urge his fellow-believers to continue [present tensesustained perseverance] in the grace of God (Acts 13:43)? The Scriptures warn of certain Christians who attempted to revert to the Mosaic regime for salvation. As a result, they were severed from Christ and fallen away from grace (Galatians 3:26-27; 5:4).
Conclusion
Grace is a soul-thrilling concept; it must be deeply appreciated, but never manipulated or distorted.
Believers who remain faithful and obedient are blessed in time and rewarded in eternity. Believers who don't will be disciplined in time and lose rewards in eternity. It's that simple. And it explains all of the warning passages, NONE OF WHICH say anything close to loss of salvation.
Except Jesus said this:Once we receive the inheritance of eternal life, I totally agree with you. Right now we have it by faith. Lose your faith, and you have no chance of inheriting eternal life.
Easy. That is His plan: to save those who believe. Your question reveals some serious misunderstanding of God's plan, imho.If it isn't our faith which saves us, then why does God require faith to be saved?
From ALL the verses together, it should be clear to anyone that Jesus meant that because of your faith you have been saved.Luke 7:50 -
And He said to the woman, Your faith has saved you; go in peace.
This verse is a prooftext for MY view, not yours.Ephesians 2:8 -
For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
Of course we are saved through faith. Faith is the requirement of God before He will save anyone.I'm sorry FG2, no faith, no salvation. What kind of belief do you have which says it is not faith which saves us? Paul plainly says we are saved through faith; you say we aren't.
Neither. Silly question. It is God who saves. Are you going to argue against that??So, what is it, faith that saves, or no faith that saves?
NO, God saves a man. That is Biblical. I'm sure anyone who knows what the meaning of Savior is. One who SAVES.Does believing, or faith save a man? If you say no, then are in the unorthodox group.
Wrong completely.Because faith saves, then it is faith doing the keeping as well.
Please identify what specific verses allow such a conclusion.We also know Jesus changed the water into wine after the baptism of John (John 1). So we do know Judas was present with Jesus from the baptism of John.
This is complete nonsense. John 3:16 is for everyone, just as John 10:28,29 is. I'm amazed at these statements.John 3:16 was to a specific person, and not universal then; John 10:28 was to a specific group of Jews, and not universal then. Ephesians 1:3 was to a specific group, and not universal. This game will get you nowhere.
Except for all the verses that guarantee our salvation. Eph 1:13,14, 4:30, 2 Cor 1:22 and 5:5 ALL teach that the Holy Spirit is God's pledge to the believer for the day of redemption.If it was a lack of faith that separated Judas from God, then we have to say it is a lack of faith which separates any man from God, which includes those who depart from faith.
The only alternate view is that the Bible was lying when it spoke of Samuel speaking to Saul. Is that your view?So you think when Saul went to a woman with familiar spirits, she actually spoke with Samuel?
Then explain WHY Samuel told Saul that he would join him the next day.Anyway, this was spoken by 'Samuel' to Saul in verse 16, "Then said Samuel, Wherefore then dost thou ask of me, seeing the Lord is departed from thee, and is become thine enemy?"
God had departed from Saul, and became his enemy. No God, no salvation.
The Bible refers only to Samuel. There is NO reason at all to ASSUME that Saul was speaking to a "familiar spirit". The text NEVER describes Samuel as that.If this was a familiar spirit, and not Samuel, then Saul would not be in heaven.
This entire post is in error. So I'll just summarize. I've provided clear verses that remove any possibility of losing salvation, and they are sidestepped by those on your side.
Believers who remain faithful and obedient are blessed in time and rewarded in eternity. Believers who don't will be disciplined in time and lose rewards in eternity. It's that simple. And it explains all of the warning passages, NONE OF WHICH say anything close to loss of salvation.
If that is the position you wish to take, that is completely up to you. Believe as you will. Ultimately it is about your salvation and your personal walk with God. What anyone else believes should not matter to you.
And from what I have read, you have also been provided with a different belief of those verses that you happen to disagree with. By more then one person. You have not provided any verses that have convinced non OSAS believers of your belief.
From my perspective, this has nothing to do with sides. It has everything to do with Gods truth.
None of the verses you provided were side stepped, as you put it, from what I have seen. They have been addressed by one person or another with theirs/my belief of the content an meaning of those you provided. You just don't agree with their belief. That isn't side stepping in any stretch of the imagination.
However, you do get somewhat aggressive when challenged about your belief of scripture. So it is best to agree to disagree, and leave it at that...?
God Bless...and keep the faith...
I believe what the Bible says. And there is nothing about "familiar spirits" in 2 Sam 28 where Saul went to a medium. The Bible SAYS that Samuel appeared and talked with Saul.If that is the position you wish to take, that is completely up to you. Believe as you will.
Because none of them want to believe in eternal security, even though it is clearly taught.Ultimately it is about your salvation and your personal walk with God. What anyone else believes should not matter to you.
And from what I have read, you have also been provided with a different belief of those verses that you happen to disagree with. By more then one person. You have not provided any verses that have convinced non OSAS believers of your belief.
Where is there even just 1 verse that specifically and plainly says that salvation can be lost? Nowhere to be found. The guarantees, otoh, are numerous. But that's for each believer to accept or reject. But rejecting truth is never a good idea.
Which is exactly WHY I believe in eternal security.From my perspective, this has nothing to do with sides. It has everything to do with Gods truth.
What is your view of Eph 1;13,14, 4:30, 2 Cor 1:22 and 5:5? It it clear to me that God gave us the indwelling Holy Spirit FOR THE DAY OF REDEMPTION, as a promise. How is that not clear? And who addressed these verses to explain what "for the day of redemption" referred to?None of the verses you provided were side stepped, as you put it, from what I have seen. They have been addressed by one person or another with theirs/my belief of the content an meaning of those you provided. You just don't agree with their belief. That isn't side stepping in any stretch of the imagination.
Truth is clear, and there is no reason to be passive when others reject truth.However, you do get somewhat aggressive when challenged about your belief of scripture. So it is best to agree to disagree, and leave it at that...?
God Bless...and keep the faith...
FreeGrace2 said:Please provide the verse that supports this claim.
Zanting said:May I ask you your view of free will in relation to one's salvation?
Sure. I believe the Fall has so affected man's will that unless God intervenes, man will not choose Christ, or hear the gospel with understanding, because their desires are counter to Christ and the Gospel. They won't choose Christ because to them it is not attractive, they don't believe, and don't want to believe. It's not so much that they cannot choose, it has more to do with them not wanting to choose.
I'm reminded of the old saying, "A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still." There is a tendency among Churches in America (especially) to think that people can be won to Christ with slick speeches, compelling presentations, eloquent preaching, creative altar calls, and the like. That is completely the wrong way.
No man can come to Christ unless the Father draws him. Jesus' own words. Instead of all the aforementioned methods, what should be happening is intercessory prayer for the Father to draw more people to Christ, and understanding that unless they have been drawn by the Father, they won't believe, no matter what we do. Salvation is 100% God, He is the one who grants hearing with understanding of the Gospel, which brings faith which will enable them to believe. Salvation is a work of the entire Godhead. And unless HE is involved, nothing we can say or do will cause people to believe.
I do not believe that man can choose Christ, anytime he wants, on his own terms. Unless God has opened their eyes and ears, and changed their heart, and imparted faith in their hearts by the hearing of the Word (Gospel), they will not choose Christ. A work of God needs to happen in their heart for them to choose Christ.
Why? because as sinners, they are enemies of God, they do not love Him, they have no desire to serve or obey Him, and in actual fact, they hate Him. As I said earlier, I don't believe it's possible to love what you hate, or hate what you love. I don't believe it's possible for a man to change his mind about things so fundamental without outside help.
Does man have the ability to choose? Of course! But man will not willingly choose what they hate (God), or love what they hate (God), or hate what they love (Sin), or not choose what they love (Sin). If somehow they are manipulated into doing so, they will revert, because no man can convert himself to Christ. Unless Christ converts him, he will remain unconverted. And no man is converted to Christ by his own ability or effort, he is converted by the influence, power, and action of the Holy Spirit.
I have to say that I very much enjoyed reading this. You write with a flowing and honest deliberation in your tone.
A few thoughts came to mind while I was reading your response that I would like to share. However, I am quite tired and have been working most of the evening on some rather unpleasant legal matters.
I really needed a break, so I checked my email and read your response. It was a really good read for me.
I would like to get back to you tomorrow if that is ok.
I don't agree with the fall of man being cursed to never want God.
Don't confuse those whom God draws to Himself with those he does not draw.The bible speaks of man not being truly happy or fulfilled unless they are following Gods will / righteousness.!!
And true Faith is to believe that fact! Or tue faith is to believe in every word of God.
The word of God / what it says about truly not thirsting and I shall not want!
And Job ultimately repented of that attitude, when God spoke to him out of the whirlwind, starting with the words, "Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge? Gird up now thy loins like a man; for I will demand of thee, and answer thou me." (Job 38)Job 27:6
My righteousness I hold fast, and will not let it go: my heart shall not reproach me so long as I live.
Matt 5:6
Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.
John 4:14
But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life
Psalms 23:1
The Lord is my shepherd; I shall not want.
Who said anything about having no will?These are clear directions that would be redundant if we have no will
Who is he speaking to here? Not heathens.Hebrew 3:6
But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.
Righteousness is only found in Christ. I am in Him, by faith.Hold fast brother
If you search for righteousness you will find it
Sorry, but you're confused, and not understanding who is being spoken of and to.All these men searched for righteousness and it was because they were running away from sin
It wasn't the other way around
Faith before works is clear
Then this is a contradiction And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me. ([bless and do not curse]John‬ [bless and do not curse]12‬:[bless and do not curse]32‬ KJV)nobdysfool said:Then I must inform you that you are not agreeing with the Word of God. When you look around today at what is going on in the world, it is quite evident that mankind is not just "sick", mankind as a whole is Fallen. Romans 1 lays it out pretty clearly. Don't confuse those whom God draws to Himself with those he does not draw. And Job ultimately repented of that attitude, when God spoke to him out of the whirlwind, starting with the words, "Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge? Gird up now thy loins like a man; for I will demand of thee, and answer thou me." (Job 38) God: "Wilt thou also disannul my judgment? Wilt thou condemn me, that thou mayest be righteous?" (Job 40) Job: "Who is he that hideth counsel without knowledge? therefore have I uttered that I understood not; things too wonderful for me, which I knew not." (Job 42) Job: "Wherefore I abhor myself, and repent in dust and ashes." (Job 42) It is not a wise thing to declare your righteousness before God Spoken to those who are drawn by the Father. Who said anything about having no will? Who is he speaking to here? Not heathens. Righteousness is only found in Christ. I am in Him, by faith. Sorry, but you're confused, and not understanding who is being spoken of and to. Read Job chapters 38 and following, and you will see the most amazing dressing-down God has given to a man who thought his own righteousness was worth something. Job, in the end, got it. Do you?
Then this is a contradiction And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me. ([bless and do not curse]John‬ [bless and do not curse]12‬:[bless and do not curse]32‬ KJV)
Since the claim I commented on wasn't included in your post, I have no idea what claim my comment was for. I went back 4 pages to find where that came from but found no posts from you. So, was my comment to someone else? If so, please identify the post # so I will have context for the comment.It's pretty clear you can't say you don't believe in God and then say your of the faith .
No verse necessary
lori milne said:Then this is a contradiction And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me. ([bless and do not curse]John‬ [bless and do not curse]12‬:[bless and do not curse]32‬ KJV)
nobdysfool said:Then I must inform you that you are not agreeing with the Word of God. When you look around today at what is going on in the world, it is quite evident that mankind is not just "sick", mankind as a whole is Fallen. Romans 1 lays it out pretty clearly. Don't confuse those whom God draws to Himself with those he does not draw. And Job ultimately repented of that attitude, when God spoke to him out of the whirlwind, starting with the words, "Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge? Gird up now thy loins like a man; for I will demand of thee, and answer thou me." (Job 38) God: "Wilt thou also disannul my judgment? Wilt thou condemn me, that thou mayest be righteous?" (Job 40) Job: "Who is he that hideth counsel without knowledge? therefore have I uttered that I understood not; things too wonderful for me, which I knew not." (Job 42) Job: "Wherefore I abhor myself, and repent in dust and ashes." (Job 42) It is not a wise thing to declare your righteousness before God Spoken to those who are drawn by the Father. Who said anything about having no will? Who is he speaking to here? Not heathens. Righteousness is only found in Christ. I am in Him, by faith. Sorry, but you're confused, and not understanding who is being spoken of and to. Read Job chapters 38 and following, and you will see the most amazing dressing-down God has given to a man who thought his own righteousness was worth something. Job, in the end, got it. Do you?
lori milne said:I wanted to respond to all of the post but a lot of what you said was a belief or view ! Like your statement about job? I have nothing to say to that because it's your idea of what scripture says I can't win or even defend it.
But What your view in the fall of man is very interesting, it's pure Calvinism but your view of it seems more from you.
I find this rather interesting.
I did however forget to say
You mentioned in your statement to me that free will was irrelevant to what you were saying about mans fall making them not want God or hate God. But the original question was what's your view on free will from zanting ?
So free will is the base of this statement I had made.
At least from me,
For instance if your correct then God willed evil to exist and satan to be evil as well. Which makes God the tyrant and the devil the victim. The theory is a lot more broad and very hard to chew for me especially with rest of the word.
I do see in the bible the parables of the tears in the wheat. And the statement jesus makes about the goats and the sheep being divided As well as some that understand and some that don't understand?
Im searching scripture to better understand this. I'm not wrong to say that all men won't go to heaven I think we both agree
But is that because the devil slipped in tares or goats to mislead us? Is their an elect hmmm Idk I see the verses below and all men is confirmed already through the word.
But for true understanding sake I'm searching
* For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. Titus 2:11
1 Timothy 4-6
*Who ever believes in him , not who ever he draws to him.
*God so loved the world
*The light of the world is clear and is seen in the darkness.
*Predestined all to come and that no man should Parrish
You must believe in God to have eternal security Unless you feel what we do has nothing to do with eternal security because we are predestined!lori milne said:Originally Posted by FreeGrace2 Departing from the faith only refers to what man believes, or quits believing, which has nothing to do with salvation or eternal security. We are not held by our faith, but by God Himself. That's our security. Please provide Scriptural evidence for this claim. Jesus Himself noted those who would "believe for a while, and then because of testing, fall away". Your claim has been refuted from Scripture. Lu 8:13
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?