Reformation

Originally posted by s0uljah
I was raised Methodist as well, but felt nothing in the church. I felt God in a Catholic Church and it was in a Catholic Church that God spoke to me.

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Very, very true. In fact, I never felt truly forgiven for my sins until after my first confession to a priest. It was face to face and I actually feel like a changed person when I go to confession. I've never been closer to Christ than I have since becoming Catholic.

Praise be to God!

Originally posted by s0uljah
Well, what say you Reformationist?

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Still reading the information you provided.  I'll respond as soon as I'm done with that, unless there's more?

God bless

Originally posted by s0uljah
Well, hopefully you view that as an objective source, since the author isn't Catholic. Do you?

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So far the information seems very thorough.  And yes, the fact that it is not Catholic lends more credence to it's acceptibility.  I mean no disrespect by that.  The author of the information is, as he claims, Presbyterian.  I have not seen any info regarding his personal position on the information provided.  So, he seems as objective as I would prefer.

God bless

Originally posted by s0uljah
Well, what say you Reformationist?

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Did you want me to read more from that site than just the section on "The Roots of the Protestant Reformation?"

Originally posted by s0uljah
How did the bad behavior of 5 popes create a new theology, given that the core Catholic beliefs never changed, despite the bad behavior of some Popes?

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Okay.  I read the information you referrenced.  The gentleman who posted the information seems to have done a good job of explaining the roots of the Protestant reformation.  He does notate the following:

"This booklet is meant to be a handbook, not a complete study of Reformation theology, and certainly not a complete history. Rather, it attempts to capture the key events, and key theological views of the key 16th-century reformers, in a (hopefully) easy to read and easily accessible format. The booklet does not examine later (post-16th century) Protestant movements, such as the Methodists or Baptists."

At his own admission he attempts to address "the key events and key theological views of the key 16th-century reformers."  His booklet is not a complete study of the Reformation theology, nor a complete history.

As a reformed Protestant I contend that the theological views expressed by such notables as Augustine, Luther, Calvin, Knox, Lewis, and Spurgeon regarding many of the same issues we address on this MB are not new views.  Personally, I believe that due to the influence, both financial and political, of the Roman church during this period served, in a large way, to repress any reformatory movements that would lessen the position of the church and her hierarchy.  From the information I have read on the state of the Roman church, and I admit it is limited, during this time period there was so much corruption due to nepotism, inaccurate application of the Word, and a corrupt elective system, both in the church's sphere and the government sphere, which seemed to overlap at times, that working within the church would be more involved than just getting rid of "5 popes."  The corruption in the Roman church, from all accounts I've read, spread so far within the organization/church that a complete cleaning house needed to take place.  Do you really think that those who were in power, who were abusing their position, would be willing to step down and have, what they considered a radical, another, like Luther, step up and assume the position as church leader?

As heretical as you might view the reformation position, you have them to thank for your ability to go home and read your Bible without learning Greek, and Latin, and Hebrew.  Do you truly believe it's God's Will that you don't have that resource, that it be left up to your church clergy to do all of the studying for you?

Sorry bro, I don't see the reformation as simple as resulting from the "bad behavior of 5 popes."  The reformation was God's Hand realigning His Body back to the accurate interpretation of His Word.

God bless

Originally posted by s0uljah
Oh, I do thank the protestors. Believe me, I agree with their anger.

Nevertheless, the bad Popes, the corruption, etc, were never allowed to declare doctrine that was wrong.

Given that fact, how do you justify declaring new doctrine?

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As I said, I don't think the reformation declared "new doctrine."  I think the doctrine that I learn today, thanks to those early reformers, such as Luther, Calvin, and Knox, is the doctrine that Christ taught.  I just think the Catholic church warps that doctrine to serve herself, rather than the Body of Christ.

God bless 

Originally posted by Reformationist
The reformation was God's Hand realigning His Body back to the accurate interpretation of His Word.

God bless

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But which "body" should we be apart of? Protestants do not agree among themselves on many issue and doctorines - how do we know we are getting the most accurate interpretation of His Word in the denomination we are a member of?

Originally posted by Nilhil Obstat
But which "body" should we be apart of? Protestants do not agree among themselves on many issue and doctorines - how do we know we are getting the most accurate interpretation of His Word in the denomination we are a member of?

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Well, that's a good point.  I think the best thing we can do is start at the beginning and really study what effect the Fall had on mankind.  For me, once I realized the enormous, and irrefutable, effect the Fall had on mankind it was not very difficult to see Christ's substitutionary death as propitiatory, and saving.  For me to say that I was saved because "I chose to believe of my own free will" is blasphemy and lessens that great sacrifice of the Lord's.  To me, to say that God's Will is subject to man's is blasphemy and I cannot see myself worshipping a god that cannot control His own creation.  With all that in mind, and a little bit of understanding of what propitiation, sovereignty, and salvation mean turned out to be a good foundation for learning who God really was and the enormity of what He did for me.  I can be eternally greatful to Him, and Him alone, for my salvation.  I give myself credit for nothing.  To me, to say that "you give all the glory to God for your salvation" but then turn around and say, "I'm saved because I made the free will decision to accept His actions as true and that's the reason they are manifest in my life" are contradictory, and unbibilical.

I admit these are very confusing things at times.

God bless

Originally posted by s0uljah
I think you are in denial, to be bluntly honest. The doctines in my first post were declared by the reformers, and were not what was passed down over 1500 years.

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Who told you that?  Your church? 

It was a brand new interpretation of the scriptures, was it not? If not, show my historical references please.

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Well, as has been previously discussed, the Protestant movements of today can trace their roots back to the Roman church.  Therefore, any historical referrences are controlled by said church.  But, just as a side note, the Law of God has been around a lot longer than your church.  You didn't come up with the Bible.  You were an instrument used by God to proliferate it among His chosen.  You claim the credit for that event to the detriment of your credibility.

God bless

Originally posted by s0uljah
The Catholic Church decided what would be included in the Bible. You owe them a debt.

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ROTFLOL!  Oh my!  Well, at least your dedicated to your new church.  Did the Catholic church inspire those books?  Is the Catholic church the reason I'm saved?  It's so sad that you credit your church with the creation of God's Word.  They're just men s0uljah...just men.  They didn't "create" anything.  If they put it in book form, guess what, it was because God used them to do so.  Your church decided what would be included in the Bible?  Oh please...

I owe them nothing.

Originally posted by s0uljah
If God used them as an intrument, which I agree, and you do as well, then why did He stop and let them go "astray?" In other words, why can't He use them today as well?

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Who said God doesn't use the Catholic church today as well?  In fact, I'm sure He does.

Romans 8:28
And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose.

Things happen according to His purpose, not man's.

Originally posted by s0uljah
If God used them to decide what was accurate, as He promised He would, then how can you dismiss the idea that He still does it?

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Because the RCC of today isn't the church that Christ established.  Simple.