Red Foxes Talking Circle

Red Fox · Mar 11, 2015

LoAmmi said:
I am always curious when people say they want to follow Jesus but not Christianity.

It is a different and complex issue, IMHO. It has been and is still a great struggle for me.

LoAmmi said:
How do you follow him?

I am not exactly sure just yet. I am just starting over.

LoAmmi said:
His moral teachings?

Yes, of course.

LoAmmi said:
Do you believe he is the incarnation of G-d?

Yes, I do.

LoAmmi said:
Do you believe following him is the way to Heaven or "the Father"?

Yes, but I do not believe that the way I was taught over the years to believe concerning this is the only right way. For example, I do not believe anymore that I have to abandon my entire NDN identity to be truly saved and to go to heaven. I no longer believe the perpetuated lies I have heard that because I am NDN that I am somehow this soulless heathen who is incapable of finding God and worshiping Him outside of the teachings of the Christian church.

Red Fox · Mar 11, 2015

LoAmmi said:
But it was the Christian religion that produced the Gospels and determined which stories would be cannon and which would be excluded. You are looking at the people who wrote these things down and saying they are wrong, but being happy with the work they produced enough to believe it's true. Seems like a contradiction to me.

No, I am not saying they were wrong. I still believe the Scriptures to be from God, but I do not want to argue with anyone about theology or doctrines or say who is right and who is wrong in their theology or doctrines. I cannot honestly tell another Christian that they are not truly saved because they do not believe the same theology or doctrines as I do. I have put up with all that nonsense since I first became a Christian. I refuse to be guilty of it myself. However, what I am saying is that what I have been subjected to within the Christian church as an NDN Christian is morally wrong and that is what I am separating myself from.

Red Fox · Mar 11, 2015

gordRedeemed said:
Also not trying to discourage Red Fox. She has to follow her own path and by the sounds of it I think she is, so that's all good to me. It's sounds like she plans to blaze her own trail which I always encourage.

In the end it's usually people that mess stuff up. That's why I kinda gave up any thoughts of 'communal' spirituality and just do my own thing.

That is a good way to put it. I guess I am blazing my own trail, but it is very difficult and very painful.

Aldebaran · Mar 11, 2015

Red Fox said:
No, I am not saying they were wrong. I still believe the Scriptures to be from God, but I do not want to argue with anyone about theology or doctrines or say who is right and who is wrong in their theology or doctrines. I cannot honestly tell another Christian that they are not truly saved because they do not believe the same theology or doctrines as I do. I have put up with all that nonsense since I first became a Christian. I refuse to be guilty of it myself. However, what I am saying is that what I have been subjected to within the Christian church as an NDN Christian is morally wrong and that is what I am separating myself from.

What specifically happened to you there? What did the other people do?

Cute Tink · Mar 11, 2015

You aren't the first religious person I've met who isn't thrilled with organized religion. Some people switch churches, some stay and some leave behind the organization while still holding the same beliefs.

Aldebaran · Mar 11, 2015

Cute Tink said:
You aren't the first religious person I've met who isn't thrilled with organized religion. Some people switch churches, some stay and some leave behind the organization while still holding the same beliefs.

Believe it or not, I fall into that category myself. I no longer attend a church, although there are a couple good radio programs I listen to that give me the same things I got in church--a sermon with good teachings and truth. Since I single and not very social, the fellowship part eluded me and was the most awkward part.

jacknife · Mar 11, 2015

i disagree with the notion that one can believe in a deity and still be called an atheist. it goes against the meaning of the word. you can be spiritual and atheist. as for his philosophical points.....i have never read any philosophy in my life i find it dull and rather pointless. i have no idea what a New Atheist movement means. i've also never ment an atheist who is 100% sure gods dont exist.

Red Fox · Mar 11, 2015

Cute Tink · Mar 11, 2015

Aldebaran said:
Believe it or not, I fall into that category myself. I no longer attend a church, although there are a couple good radio programs I listen to that give me the same things I got in church--a sermon with good teachings and truth. Since I single and not very social, the fellowship part eluded me and was the most awkward part.

The fellowship and social encouragement is one of the great things about churches in general.

Red Fox · Mar 11, 2015

Aldebaran · Mar 11, 2015

Red Fox said:
Degrading NDNs to my face, talking trash about them in front of me, telling me my people got exactly what they deserved and they are no better than dogs, saying in ear shot of me that all NDNs are soulless heathens, incapable of any kind of human emotion or logic, putting me down for being NDN, saying it's good that I'm in the church so I can learn to become a civilized human being, telling me that I have to abandon everything NDN about myself so that I can be saved and go to heaven or else I'm going to burn in hell with all the other godless NDNs. Should I go on? Mind you that the people who said these things to me or about me over the years were either senior citizen age or redneck or cowboy Caucasian Christians, inside three different Protestant churches.

Wow! I'm really sorry you went through that! I can see why you wouldn't want to be there anymore. I couldn't imagine something like that happening, but then again, I've been through abuse of my own that other people have told me they can't imagine happening either, so I do believe you. Well, I hope you're being well-treated here on this forum anyway. It seems to a good place for people to go without being judged based on your race.

Red Fox · Mar 11, 2015

Aldebaran said:
Wow! I'm really sorry you went through that! I can see why you wouldn't want to be there anymore. I couldn't imagine something like that happening, but then again, I've been through abuse of my own that other people have told me they can't imagine happening either, so I do believe you. Well, I hope you're being well-treated here on this forum anyway. It seems to a good place for people to go without being judged based on your race.

Unfortunately, I have experienced similar attitudes and behavior toward me as an NDN and toward my people on this site, but not in this particular forum. And no, it isn't a good place to go without being judged upon your race. I had an incident not too long ago in another forum concerning being judged upon my race and it was a very painful and agonizing experience for me to go through AGAIN. My short history on this site is an interesting one, but I can't talk about it in public.

Aldebaran · Mar 11, 2015

Cute Tink said:
The fellowship and social encouragement is one of the great things about churches in general.

I know. That's the big reason I'd like to go back, but the fact that I never find it there is the reason I don't go. I used to go to a church for 4 years when a friend of mine started a church--first in his home, then in a building. It was the reason I moved to that town 30 miles from home when I moved out at age 19. Then my friend the pastor became very controlling of people, kicked people out left and right until he finally did the same with me, and then I ended up moving back to where I am now (hometown). It was easy going to that church because I knew people there from the beginning. I've tried going to others here, but I can't seem to get my foot in the door (metaphorically speaking) when it comes to getting to know anyone, which means I go there, listen, and then go home. So much easier to just do that with my radio each day.

AskTheFamily · Mar 11, 2015

Hi Red Fox. I think many natives had experience like Abraham had when he saw the inner kingdom of the heavens and the earth. This is why they believe everything has a spirit and that the earth is alive.

I believe the earth is alive, it witnesses us, the atoms are alive, they have spirits, trees, our clothes, God creates spirits in everything.

From what I read they emphasized on the ethereal spirit guides, and I believe the Guide is Imam Mahdi in this day and age.

The plants, the animals, the earth, I believe natives glorified the Creator with all these things glorifying with them, just like Dawood had the birds glorifying with him.

Cute Tink · Mar 11, 2015

Aldebaran said:
I know. That's the big reason I'd like to go back, but the fact that I never find it there is the reason I don't go. I used to go to a church for 4 years when a friend of mine started a church--first in his home, then in a building. It was the reason I moved to that town 30 miles from home when I moved out at age 19. Then my friend the pastor became very controlling of people, kicked people out left and right until he finally did the same with me, and then I ended up moving back to where I am now (hometown). It was easy going to that church because I knew people there from the beginning. I've tried going to others here, but I can't seem to get my foot in the door (metaphorically speaking) when it comes to getting to know anyone, which means I go there, listen, and then go home. So much easier to just do that with my radio each day.

I never developed any kind of bonds in a church, but many people do and I can see why they would go for that if nothing else.

I have found different groups where I do fit in and have lots of social time, though. It keeps me going back.

Aldebaran · Mar 11, 2015

Cute Tink said:
I never developed any kind of bonds in a church, but many people do and I can see why they would go for that if nothing else.

I have found different groups where I do fit in and have lots of social time, though. It keeps me going back.

I used to have that in some way when I was going. I got to know some people and considered them friends. When they were all kicked out by the pastor, I wasn't allowed to associate with them anymore. They were the only friends I had, so I associated with them anyway, which got me kicked out as well. Now those friends have moved on, so I don't have them anymore either. So I bought a laptop computer. Ha! Who needs 'em when ya got the internet?

Cute Tink · Mar 11, 2015

The interwebs are full of people

Or, at least, fairly decent AI.

Aldebaran · Mar 11, 2015

Cute Tink said:
The interwebs are full of people

Or, at least, fairly decent AI.

Being hard to tell them apart is the fun part.

paul becke · Mar 11, 2015

Red Fox said:
I'M GOING TO LAWTON, OKLAHOMA TO PARTICIPATE IN AN AIM (AMERICAN INDIAN MOVEMENT) PROTEST AGAINST A SUBWAYS RESTAURANT TODAY.

A Subways employee is guilty of racially discriminating against a Comanche Indian inside a Subways restaurant and his protest to such treatment has been relatively ignored by Subways Corporate. There have also been other complaints from Native Americans about this particular Subways as well. So, AIM of Texas and Oklahoma have organized this protest in rebuttal to this blatant disregard to racial discrimination against this man and other Native Americans. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a6pzxHMAqOY

I believe I read the other day that the West coast of the US is heinously racist towards Native Americans, while people on the East Coast have a much more European attitude toward your people.

The UK is, imo, badly racist towards British people of African descent, although I don't think as cretinously shameless about it, as is often the case in the US, particularly the South. But as regards Native Americans, or Red Indians as we are wont to call them, I think people have a rather admiring attitude towards them. All most of us know about you is from Saturday morning puctures when we were children, and from Clint Eastwood films, where you tend to come off rather admirably. I know of toffs, genuine upper-class, not far below royalty, who are proud of being descended form the native American princess, Pocahontas. Custer is not highly thought of, anywhere, I think. Maybe parts of the US.

The Jews and the Indians are resented mostly as a result of envy, although the Catholic church, my own denomination, has a lot to answer for regarding its rabid anti-Semitism, prior to Vatican II.

Aldebaran · Mar 11, 2015

paul becke said:
I believe I read the other day that the West coast of the US is heinously racist towards Native Americans, while people on the East Coast have a much more European attitude toward your people.

The UK is, imo, badly racist towards British people of African descent, although I don't think as cretinously shameless about it, as is often the case in the US, particularly the South. But as regards Native Americans, or Red Indians as we are wont to call them, I think people have a rather admiring attitude towards them. All most of us know about you is from Saturday morning puctures when we were children, and from Clint Eastwood films, where you tend to come off rather admirably. I know of toffs, genuine upper-class, not far below royalty, who are proud of being descended form the native American princess, Pocahontas. Custer is not highly thought of, anywhere, I think. Maybe parts of the US.

The Jews and the Indians are resented mostly as a result of envy, although the Catholic church, my own denomination, has a lot to answer for regarding its rabid anti-Semitism, prior to Vatican II.

It sounds like the disdain toward any group comes from the thinking in that area. Where I am in the midwest, there are streets and towns with names that are Native American in origin. There are also Indian casinos here. Native Americans (here at least) don't like being called Indians. They take it as a derogatory term and want to be called Native American. Understandable, since true Indians are from India. The term NDN would seem to be even more derogatory, but Red Fox seems to prefer it. I guess where a person lives and what they grew up with has quite a bit to do with the terms they are comfortable with. I used to say Indian all the time, but now use Native American. I hope that term isn't insulting to anyone.

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