Real masculinity

Still Single and Happy said:

the pastor said you can be a male but not be a man.

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Sounds like the usual shaming tactics that people use daily, if a man doesn’t behave the way that pastor desires suddenly he ain’t a real man.

Although there certainly are biblical manhood roles explained in scripture, simply saying “you’re male but not a man” sounds like weak trash talk you’d hear from baby mamma in the ghetto. Men are already fleeing church, this pastor need not incentivise their exit further.

I’d be interested to know who he is, if he’s particularly famous and comfortable being put out there.

I’d be curious to hear what he said. For my edification. I have an idea where he went.

Yours in His Service,

~bella

Cormack said:

Sounds like the usual shaming tactics that people use daily, if a man doesn’t behave the way that pastor desires suddenly he ain’t a real man.

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Agreed.

I wonder if that pastor could pass his own test. Doubt it. Most can't.

Only insecure sissies get so worked up about their so-called "manhood" that they have to make up some sort of false church doctrine over it.

Man = Adult Human Male

Simple as that.

Still Single and Happy said:

I highly disagree with the three posters ahead of me but I don't want to get into a argument on the internet.

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It would help if you posted the sermon or link for discussion purposes. Your OP can be taken out of context without it.

Yours in His Service,

~bella

bekkilyn said:

Man = Adult Human Male

Simple as that.

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There's arguably more to manliness than being an adult human male. It has less to do with machismo than about being a *responsible* adult. For instance, some people try to normalize bad behavior by saying "boys will be boys". Maybe, but boys still have some growing up to do. A boy isn't a man.

Shaming tactics can be harmful when directed toward personal hobbies and preferences. Not every man is a rough-and-tumble kind of person. Many are not, and prefer more aesthetic or intellectual pursuits, yet they're still real men. To suggest otherwise is counterproductive. However, I do think it's okay to feel a moderate amount of shame over irresponsible choices. Not so much shame as to fall into a pit of despair, but enough to provide motivation to become a better person. To "man up", so to speak. The distinction isn't between men and women, but between men and boys.

I'm not defending the kind of preaching we see about being a "real man" or not being a "sissy" that we see so much of these days. Most of that is misguided at best. I just think there's more to manliness than being a male human over a certain age.

no link to sermon = it didn't happen

& look maw... no hands

Miles said:

There's arguably more to manliness than being an adult human male. It has less to do with machismo than about being a *responsible* adult. For instance, some people try to normalize bad behavior by saying "boys will be boys". Maybe, but boys still have some growing up to do. A boy isn't a man.

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You hit the nail on the head. Ignoring behavior that's indicative of mental and emotional immaturity is more harmful than telling the truth.

However, I do think it's okay to feel a moderate amount of shame over irresponsible choices. Not so much shame as to fall into a pit of despair, but enough to provide motivation to become a better person. To "man up", so to speak. The distinction isn't between men and women, but between men and boys.

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I heard that growing up. Being a man was more than a number. Men didn't mince words explaining the difference. We live in a feel good age where coddling is the norm. It gave birth to extended adolescence.

Now we're "adulting."

Yours in His Service,

~bella

The real problem we have is that there are churches, pastors, wives and mothers who don’t care to grow up and train their children, instead they want to grow up and train already grown men. It’s not their job to grow up adult men though, it was never their job.

Miles said:

There's arguably more to manliness than being an adult human male. It has less to do with machismo than about being a *responsible* adult. For instance, some people try to normalize bad behavior by saying "boys will be boys". Maybe, but boys still have some growing up to do. A boy isn't a man.

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What you are saying reminds me of Jordan Peterson. The first 5 minutes of this is worth a listen (and much of the rest is not only interesting but highly entertaining). For the first five minutes he talks a lot about maturity in males and what men can offer the world. He says that men need to grow up before they can offer anything to the world and be a partner to a woman.

bèlla said:

It gave birth to extended adolescence.

Now we're "adulting."

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Some of that is due to the modern trend of what is sometimes known as 'helicopter parenting', and some of it is due to external factors, such as the high cost of housing/living, which is causing young people to live with and/or be dependent on their parents long after they should have moved out.

In my opinion the 2008 recession led to a lot of adulting. Globalism, off-shoring and open borders migration has also contributed by causing a lack of stable, well-paid employment, and creating a wages race to the bottom. And that is why I cannot understand why people vote for globalists and corporatists. Globalists have caused untold misery in the West, and those who have not yet been impacted had better wake up, because many of them will soon lose their jobs through offshoring, migration, and automation. More recently we add in COVID, which has destroyed many of the hospitality jobs that are often done by young people.

Miles said:

There's arguably more to manliness than being an adult human male. It has less to do with machismo than about being a *responsible* adult. For instance, some people try to normalize bad behavior by saying "boys will be boys". Maybe, but boys still have some growing up to do. A boy isn't a man.

Shaming tactics can be harmful when directed toward personal hobbies and preferences. Not every man is a rough-and-tumble kind of person. Many are not, and prefer more aesthetic or intellectual pursuits, yet they're still real men. To suggest otherwise is counterproductive. However, I do think it's okay to feel a moderate amount of shame over irresponsible choices. Not so much shame as to fall into a pit of despair, but enough to provide motivation to become a better person. To "man up", so to speak. The distinction isn't between men and women, but between men and boys.

I'm not defending the kind of preaching we see about being a "real man" or not being a "sissy" that we see so much of these days. Most of that is misguided at best. I just think there's more to manliness than being a male human over a certain age.

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An irresponsible adult who is male is also a man. He's simply an irresponsible man. A boy isn't a man because he isn't an adult. However, he will at some point become a man. When we talk of "manliness" it goes into the realms of subjectivity and feelings, which differs by personal preference, culture, etc. What is "manly" to one person could be ridiculous to a different person. The only objective definition we have for a man is adult human male.

JustSomeBloke said:

Some of that is due to the modern trend of what is sometimes known as 'helicopter parenting', and some of it is due to external factors, such as the high cost of housing/living, which is causing young people to live with and/or be dependent on their parents long after they should have moved out.

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Living doesn't turn someone into Peter Pan. That's a different mindset.

Yours in His Service,

~bella

I am curious what you mean by biblical manhood.

As an atheist and someone heavily interested in evolutionary psychology I look at masculinity (and femininity) through the phenomenon of human neoteny. Specifically that women are more neotenous on average than men. Neoteny being one who retains childlike physical traits into adulthood. Women on average have a smaller body size, less brow ridges, a more delicate skeleton, larger tear ducts (for crying) and a higher pitched voice.

There are good reasons why women evolved (and men selected for) neotenous features. Women are the ones who become pregnant and as a consequence they are more biologically valuable than men. Them retaining more childlike cues helps facilitate caring and concern. Evolution works by increments and the easiest path was for women to piggy back the already evolved cues we developed for children and infants.

As a consequence men evolved to take on a more parental role. Women tend to be more concerned with the socioeconomic status of men than the other way around. Society gives men more agency compared to women at a consequence of men being more responsible for their actions. Men face longer prison sentences for the same crimes compared to women. Assault against men is taken more lightly.

With these things in mind you can develop a theme of what masculinity is. Namely men who are able to take on more of a "parental role". Women tend to value men who have high social economic status, strength (with height being a huge factor), willing to physically defend their family. While I have not heard what Biblical manhood is according to you, it would surprise me if it did not fall within these themes.

While these themes can somewhat shift from culture to culture, they're pretty much universal and anything less does not really make any sense. Even within modern feminism men taking on more responsibility and agency is a core tenant. Feminism often boils down to women finding ways to be damsels in distress and victims and wanting men to "help them" and take on a more stoic and selfless role in life compared to women.

bekkilyn said:

An irresponsible adult who is male is also a man. He's simply an irresponsible man. A boy isn't a man because he isn't an adult. However, he will at some point become a man. When we talk of "manliness" it goes into the realms of subjectivity and feelings, which differs by personal preference, culture, etc. What is "manly" to one person could be ridiculous to a different person. The only objective definition we have for a man is adult human male.

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Still Single and Happy said:

I just heard a sermon on the traits of masculinity in which the pastor said you can be a male but not be a man. I pray that the men on this site who are in the flock of the great Shepherd will live up to biblical manhood according to the Bible.

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I suspect a lot of pastors are insecure about their own masculinity.

bèlla said:

We live in a feel good age where coddling is the norm. It gave birth to extended adolescence.

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Truth!