Rate the historicity of Bible books

hedrick · Sep 24, 2020

I don't accept inerrancy, so I doubt that any OT book is completely accurate historically. But Judges gives a pretty candid description of a group of tribes without any serious leadership. It's intended as propaganda, to support the need for the Davidic kings, but it seems in general terms realistic.

Similarly, I assume Elijah and Elisha were actual prophets. This was near enough the period when there were systematic records that I doubt they would be completely mythological. That doesn't mean I guarantee the accuracy of all the stories about them.

cloudyday2 · Sep 24, 2020

Oseas said:
What nation do you imagine to be the clay or baked clay as you wrote?

I would say the US would fit the mold. Take the 1991 Gulf War against Iraq as an example. The US gathered together a coalition of mostly incompatible nations such as Egypt, Saudi Arabia, UK, etc. for the short-term goal of pushing Iraq out of Kuwait. The US prefers to have the support of the UN and work through coalitions of allies even when most of those allies provide only token support.

The problem with imagining the US in this role is that the US is on the decline as a superpower. Brazil for example will probably surpass the US in a few decades, and China has already surpassed the US. The US has a lot of military capability, but it no longer has the financial strength to maintain and upgrade what it has. Gradually the US will become more like the UK - a superpower in retirement.

Robban · Sep 24, 2020

cloudyday2 said:
(This is my first attempt at creating a thread with a poll, so I hope it works.)

I'm going to list some books of the Old Testament, and you can select those that seem historically factual.

You can select more than one option, and there is a "none of the above" option too.

With what authority do we have,

All those named from Creation until the Talmudic period 0-3761 (3761-0 BCE) existed they are documented, even after too,

Moses for example,

Moses, 2368-2488 (1393-1273 BCE)
Burning bush-2447-(1314 BCE)
Recieving the Torah-2448-(1313 BCE)

Moses teaches the Torah to the 70 elders and to
Joshua, Elazar and Pinchas.

Directed the exodus from Egypt.

Recieved the Torah for the Jewish people.

It is all documented with dates, pick anyone.

Today it serves as lessons.

AV1611VET · Sep 25, 2020

I accept all 39 books of the Old Testament as factual.

Even the order they are in is intelligently laid out:

17 books of history - 5 books of poetry - 17 books of prophecy

17 books of history = 5 books of Moses & 12 books of history
17 books of prophecy = 5 major prophets & 12 minor prophets

And these can be further broken down as well.

Starcomet · Sep 25, 2020

I believe the books listed are a mix of fact and mythology and especially Genesis which is largely myth.

AV1611VET · Sep 25, 2020

Starcomet said:
I believe the books listed are a mix of fact and mythology and especially Genesis which is largely myth.

Jesus doesn't think so. He quoted from them often.

In fact, He wrote them.

Oseas · Sep 26, 2020

cloudyday2 said:
I would say the US would fit the mold. Take the 1991 Gulf War against Iraq as an example. The US gathered together a coalition of mostly incompatible nations such as Egypt, Saudi Arabia, UK, etc. for the short-term goal of pushing Iraq out of Kuwait. The US prefers to have the support of the UN and work through coalitions of allies even when most of those allies provide only token support.

You said in your post 17: "I would imagine the final kingdom of baked clay mixed with iron would be an alliance of incompatible nations...", so, based in your post I quoted , I would ask you: Where is the kingdom? I see there is not any kingdom in your reply.

Do you think that "the US would fit the mold", as iron or as a clay? If you think US is iron, then which is the clay? If US is the clay, which are the iron? By the way, what about Israel? where would you fit Israel in this biblical riddle? Would be Iron or Clay?

cloudyday2 said:
"The problem with imagining the US in this role is that the US is on the decline as a superpower.

Oh This is only the beginning of sorrows.

cloudyday2 said:
Brazil for example will probably surpass the US in a few decades, and China has already surpassed the US.

In my view, Brazil or South America as a whole, this continent is one of the seven heads of the religious Beast and his "woman" that is Great harlot that rides upon him, which will be wounded to death or mortally wounded from now on.

cloudyday2 said:
The US has a lot of military capability, but it no longer has the financial strength to maintain and upgrade what it has. Gradually the US will become more like the UK - a superpower in retirement.

Psalms 46:v. 9-10:
9 He maketh wars to cease unto the end of the earth; he breaketh the bow, and cutteth the spear in sunder; he burneth the chariot in the fire.
10 Be still, and know that I am God: I will be exalted among the heathen, I will be exalted in the earth.

Around two thousand years ago, Peter Apostle prophesied, saying: "But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto FIRE against the Day of Judgment (the Lord's Day and the Judgment Seat of Christ) and perdition of ungodly men. But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one Day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one Day. 2Peter 3:v.7-8.

And Peter Apostle said more: But the Day of the Lord (the seventh and last Day or seventh and last millennium) will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens (the first and the second heavens) shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the WORKD that are therein shall be burned up. Seeing then that all these things shall be DISSOLVED (yeah, DISSOLVED), what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness? Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the Day of God, wherein the heavens(the FIRST and the SECOND heavens) being on FIRE shall be DISSOLVED (yeah DISSOLVED), and the elements shall melt with fervent heat. God is a devouring or a consuming FIRE.

You can blaspheme how much you want, but this is true. God is God, God of the gods.

cloudyday2 · Sep 27, 2020

Oseas said:
You said in your post 17: "I would imagine the final kingdom of baked clay mixed with iron would be an alliance of incompatible nations...", so, based in your post I quoted , I would ask you: Where is the kingdom? I see there is not any kingdom in your reply.

Do you think that "the US would fit the mold", as iron or as a clay? If you think US is iron, then which is the clay? If US is the clay, which are the iron? By the way, what about Israel? where would you fit Israel in this biblical riddle? Would be Iron or Clay?

The iron / clay combination must be assembled and led by some nation who believes in coalitions - even when those coalitions are weakened by joining incompatible nations and nations with barely any interest in the mission of the coalition. Typically the US gathers nations into coalitions by bribing them and asking nothing from them except their token presence in the coalition. As the US loses power it will have less to offer in bribes and it will no longer be able to shoulder all the burdens of a military effort alone while its coalition partners do nothing.

In the immediate future, China would be the only nation who could gather a coalition of unenthusiastic and incompatible allies as fig leaf to cover what is actually a unilateral military effort. However, I don't think China cares as much about fig leaves and appearances as the US. China isn't a democracy, so they don't need to persuade their own population by creating phony coalitions.

So I'm not certain who would be assembling this sort of iron / clay kingdom after the US is pushed aside by China and other rising powers such as Brazil.

Oseas · Sep 27, 2020

cloudyday2 said:
The iron / clay combination must be assembled and led by some nation who believes in coalitions - even when those coalitions are weakened by joining incompatible nations and nations with barely any interest in the mission of the coalition. Typically the US gathers nations into coalitions by bribing them and asking nothing from them except their token presence in the coalition. As the US loses power it will have less to offer in bribes and it will no longer be able to shoulder all the burdens of a military effort alone while its coalition partners do nothing.

In the immediate future, China would be the only nation who could gather a coalition of unenthusiastic and incompatible allies as fig leaf to cover what is actually a unilateral military effort. However, I don't think China cares as much about fig leaves and appearances as the US. China isn't a democracy, so they don't need to persuade their own population by creating phony coalitions.

So I'm not certain who would be assembling this sort of iron / clay kingdom after the US is pushed aside by China and other rising powers such as Brazil.

You, Cloudy, unfortunately you work with many imaginations or speculations, in this case your message brings not a reality.

I work with the Word of God. By the way, God, with capital G, is a title of a Supreme Being, Ominiscient, and Omnipotent, and Omnipresent. He is here, understand? Then, what prevails is the Word of God, maybe you know not that the Word, yeah, the Word, the Word is God, understand? God is Spirit. JESUS, His Son, left clear saying: God is a Spirit: and they that worship Him must worship Him in spirit and in Truth. John 4:v.24

That said, what prevails is the Word of God. About the iron / clay, the Word of God says: Daniel 2:v.37-49

37 Thou, O king Nebuchadnezzar, you are a king of kings: for the God of heaven has given thee a kingdom, power, and strength, and glory. 38 And wheresoever the children of men dwell, the beasts of the field and the fowls of the heaven hath he given into thine hand, and hath made thee ruler over them all. Thou are the head of gold.

39 And after thee shall arise another kingdom inferior to thee (Medo-Persa), and another THIRD kingdom of brass, which shall bear rule over all the earth.(Greece)

40 And the FOURTH kingdom shall be strong as iron: forasmuch as iron breaketh in pieces and subdueth all things: and as iron that breaketh all these, shall it break in pieces and bruise. (Roman Empire)

41 And whereas thou sawest the feet and toes(10 toes), part of potters' clay, and part of iron, the KINGDOM shall be divided; but there shall be in it of the strength of the iron, forasmuch as thou sawest the iron mixed with miry clay. 42 And as the toes of the feet (10 toes of clay refers to the 10 tribes of Israel) were part of iron, and part of clay, so the KINGDOM shall be partly strong(iron-Gentile nations-Roman Empire), and partly broken.-(clay- Jewish nation). 43 And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men (Jewish and Gentiles): but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay.

44 And in the days of these kings (this prophecy will fulfil LITERALLY frfom now on) shall the God of heaven set up a KINGDOM, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever. (As is written in Revelation 11:v.15 and so on)

45 Forasmuch as thou sawest that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it brake in pieces the iron, the brass, the clay, the silver, and the gold; the Great God hath made known to the king what shall come to pass hereafter: and the dream is certain, and the interpretation thereof sure.

46 Then the king Nebuchadnezzar fell upon his face, and worshipped Daniel, and commanded that they should offer an oblation and sweet odours unto him.

47 The king answered unto Daniel, and said, Of a truth it is, that your God is a God of gods, and a Lord of kings, and a revealer of secrets, seeing thou couldest reveal this secret.

48 Then the king made Daniel a great man, and gave him many great gifts, and made him ruler over the whole province of Babylon, and chief of the governors over all the wise men of Babylon.

49 Then Daniel requested of the king, and he set Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, over the affairs of the province of Babylon: but Daniel sat in the gate of the king.

Rate the historicity of Bible books

Select books of the Bible that seem historical

Genesis before Abraham

Genesis Abraham thru Joseph

Exodus thru Joshua

Judges

Kings narratives of Elijah / Elisha

Esther

Job

Jonah

Daniel

None of the above

hedrick

Senior Veteran

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cloudyday2

Generic Theist

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Robban

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AV1611VET

SCIENCE CAN TAKE A HIKE

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Starcomet

Unitarian Sacramental Christian

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AV1611VET

SCIENCE CAN TAKE A HIKE

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Oseas

Well-Known Member

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cloudyday2

Generic Theist

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Oseas

Well-Known Member

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Similar threads

Rate the historicity of Bible books

Select books of the Bible that seem historical

Genesis before Abraham

Genesis Abraham thru Joseph

Exodus thru Joshua

Judges

Kings narratives of Elijah / Elisha

Esther

Job

Jonah

Daniel

None of the above

Senior Veteran

Generic Theist

-----------

SCIENCE CAN TAKE A HIKE

Unitarian Sacramental Christian

SCIENCE CAN TAKE A HIKE

Well-Known Member

Generic Theist

Well-Known Member

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