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Rate of Abortion is highest in countries where it is illegal

WarriorAngel

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An interest - yet you are against abortion and you prefer our president who is the most liberal - anti life politician ever.
I am confused.

He is so bad, he voted against keeping babies alive who survive abortion.
 
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Joshua G.

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Hmmm, I just keep wondering how we would view a past politician or group of people fighting for civil rights (for minorities) when it wasn't popular, creating political inertia with their whining. I doubt it was only in the 60s that people were fighting for equal rights. And even in the 60s, minds and hearts were not converted by any means. The Domcratic party took a HUGE loss at following (being coerced into) Lyndon Johnson's lead. The Democratic Party WAS the party of the South. They were the utterly racist party. In fact, Jimmy Carter led supporters in south to believe that he agreed with their racist views until he was elected governor and literally on the day of his inauguration let the cat out of the bag and past legislation that furthered civil rights. These people are considered heros for these very acts even though they disregarded a significant portion of their constituency... betrayed them. But in reality they didn't betray them because they didn't just do this to pass some law about using a cell phone while driving or a new tax. They furthered the cause of innate human rights. They did what was the right thing to do regardless of if people's hearts were changed or not. They didn't wait around until most everyone could calmly see their point. They bulldozed things through. That doesn't mean they thought with civil rights legislation racism would be gone... or even necessarily lessened. The racist probably got more racist. But the question is not what happened to them... but what happened to their children nd their grandchildren. As racist as some ares of the States may be they are nothing like their grandfathers' time.

So, I suppose we can just calmly wait for everyone to see our point (they never will as long as choice is an option, people never ever ever like to give up choice even if the choice is a literal piece of crap) or we can do what we need to do to lead the cause for human rights. That includes (and is not limited to) passing legislation that says that the government does not support this violation either.

In the US, Republicans use abortion as a wedge issue and to bring in funding.
And democrats use welfare, and countless do-good government programs as a wedge issue. Does that mean a person discount them as unimportant? Oh yeah, they also use choice as a wedge issue. I often listen to NPR and I love how I will hear people outrightly say "I couldnt vote for him because of his stance against abortion" and that is respected because the left has done a great job at making any polititian who is against abortion out to be a stupid caveman or heartless slaveowner. But then they will have topics dedicated to the mysterious "one-issue voter" ALWAYS referring to pro-lifers who won't vote for a candidate because he or she supports abortion.

I will agree with you that many (most) don't really care about abortion. They care about it as much as their constituecy does. I don't think McCain really cared about it (I didn't vote for him). However, some do and even when they don't, if their constituents can put enough pressure on them it can effect funding.

Perhaps mroe than that, it's about having someone who is lukewarm on the issue of abortion as opposed to someone who is ardently pro-choice which is much scarier. Because of Bush's nominations, we are still able (BARELY) to hold on to what is widely believed to be a majority (5-4) pro-life supreme court. If it had been Kerry and then Obama, it would be a decidedly pro-choice Supreme Court and during the time (or since) Bush there was a case regarding Dilation and Extraction where it was stuck down. It was not a landmark case for us... but still important because of what it DIDN'T allow to slowly creep in as the new norm (of what is a right).

The idea of having a national vote to decide is a disaster - who would support actually having it?
You're talking about a referendum? I don't know. I mean, here's the thing. It's about human rights so it's not about opinion. It's not about raising taxes or building a new school or even legalizing drugs. It's about killing humans. It is.

Such votes need to have more than a bare minimum to pass in many cases. Would it stand up constitutionally?
It should. Would it. I don't knwo. Are we not going to try because it might. It CERTAINLY won't if we have a series of pro-choice presidents who pakc the supreme court with those who are blinded on this issue. I don't knwo how Canadian politics works on this.

The law on these issues reflect what people feel about them. It could probably be useful to persue ledgisation in a similar way to the smoking lobby - incrementally as attitudes change.

This isn't about smoking. As much as I am passionately for banning smoking in public areas (it makes my blood boil) this is not the same thing in any important way (as important as that is). This is about human rights.

Education could be huge - in Canada most people have a totally inaccurate idea what our abortion laws actually say, which may well be why they are ok with them.
But no one is saying that education shouldn't be a part of it. It NEEDS to be a huge part of it. The biggest part of all. But by that I don't mean that legality is less important. It's just that education has to be fought on so many fronts. It's very complicated... it needs to be on-going for a long time.

If people want to stand and scream "Make abortion illegal now nothing else is enough, and if you don't agree with my method you advocate killing babies" then fine, but they are misrepresenting others which is a lie.
But you advocate a government protecting a woman's right to do that. I'm not screaming at you. I really do get your point and I know (hope) you don't see this as a "right". I hope it is merely taht you see this as a pragmatic way to get to the point one day where in your mind it makes sense to outlaw it.

If that is so, I am very comforted that we are arguing on the same side of the fence. If you believe it is a human right ot be able to abort then we are different sides of the fence. I'm still not screaming at you and I do respect YOU but you are wrong on your stance and I will say that as emphatically as any pioneer of human rights has had to say that in the days when what they believed was not popular. (not that I am a martyr, but I am on the less popular side of things and am looked at like a green martian... especially being a public school teacher).

I have to run... running late.

God bless!

Josh
 
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WarriorAngel

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Educating the public - explaining in an address that science has ruled life begins at conception and our laws must reflect every life as equal even if they are just getting started.

Then ban abortion...and drug related methods too like the morning after pill.
 
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S.ilvio

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An interest - yet you are against abortion and you prefer our president who is the most liberal - anti life politician ever.
I am confused.

He is so bad, he voted against keeping babies alive who survive abortion.

No matter who is in the Oval Office, he or she cannot criminalise abortion...
 
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WarriorAngel

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They can turn it over to each state - which has caused bans. Then we need pro life politicians in place in each state to do it.

But - from the top down - pro life - it would work. Otherwise you have democrat lobbyists who own pro choice politicians via PPF.
 
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No matter who is in the Oval Office, he or she cannot criminalise abortion...
Actually, if McCain would have been elected I'm sure he would have kept his promise to the Pro-Life cause and the two new Supreme Court Justices would have been conservative. This would have given conservatives the majority in the Supreme Court. If this would have happened there would have been a strong possibility that Roe VS Wade would have been repealed with that conservative majority in the Supreme Court instead of the Pro-Abortion majority that we currently still have because of Obama's appointees. Obama kept his promise to further the interests of abortion giant Planned Parenthood which set the Pro-Life cause back at least a couple of decades if not until Jesus returns to straighten out the mess.
 
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S.ilvio

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bush had a majority in the Supreme Court for a number of years and nothing.

If you think a Santorum or Romney can criminalise abortion you're wrong.
 
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S.ilvio

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I've not heard one Republican candidate say they'd do that...
 
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WarriorAngel

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I've not heard one Republican candidate say they'd do that...


YAH - but take a look at this...
Bishop: Obama Telling Catholics ‘To Hell With You’ « CBS Pittsburgh


I posted in the political forum.


Not only wont Obama even consider making it illegal - besides putting someone extremely liberal pro choice on the Supreme Court - but he does not care how Catholics feel - and refuses to let them chose to not to aid in an abortion or give out contraception.




NOW - its one thing to undo the legalizing of abortion it is another story when it becomes forced to perform - by God fearing Christians.



You dont know much about Obama, either that or you plainly give voice against abortion when it is convenient - but dont think it needs to be practiced in daily life?

So if YOU ARE pro life - what gives?
 
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S.ilvio

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I'm more pro life than you'll ever be WA as you well know. You support State Sponsored murder through the Death Penalty.

S to have my pro life convictions questioned by you is a little rich to say the least.

I say again, no president can criminalise abortion...
 
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buzuxi02

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Wow, legally? Can you provide documentation of that?

Josh i should have said that its illegal on paper but still practised with impunity. The statement i made about throwing a baby in the wastebasket was from a testimony a chinese nurse gave, which i read about a few years back. Sometimes the one child policy in rural areas is relaxed if the first child is a girl. A doctor cant reveal the gender of a baby precisely so gender selective abortion wont be utilized. Unfortunately in this instance the baby girl was spared of an abortion only to die through infanticide, so the women can try again for a son.

Theres a website called gendercide.org that has a study on female infanticide in India and China. True it was more prevalent in the past but still occurs and many turn a blind eye. Here are a few excerpts from the article:

[SIZE=-1]The Chinese government appeared to recognize the linkage by allowing families in rural areas (where anti-female bias is stronger) a second child if the first was a girl. Nonetheless, in September 1997, the World Health Organization's Regional Committee for the Western Pacific issued a report claiming that "more than 50 million women were estimated to be 'missing' in China because of the institutionalized killing and neglect of girls due to Beijing's population control program that limits parents to one child." (See Joseph Farah, "Cover-up of China's gender-cide", Western Journalism Center/FreeRepublic, September 29, 1997.) Farah referred to the gendercide as "the biggest single holocaust in human history....."[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]Johansson and Nygren attracted considerable notice with a somewhat different claim: "that adoptions (which often go unreported) account for a large proportion of the missing girls. ... If adopted children are added to the live births ... the sex ratio at birth becomes much closer to normal for most years in the 1980s. ... Adding the adopted children to live births reduces the number of missing girls by about half." (Johansson and Nygren, "The Missing Girls of China," pp. 43, 46.) They add (p. 50): "That female infanticide does occur on some scale is evidenced by reports in the Chinese press, but the available statistical evidence does not help us to determine whether it takes place on a large or a small scale."[/SIZE]

Now are the third world illegal abortions higher than in China? I doubt it.
 
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WarriorAngel

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Yet you want Obama to win..? Am i correct?
Knowing everything he stands for?

At least i dont agree with pro choice politicians who condone death to the innocent unborn. Unlike a hineous murderer.
AND i remind you - you are NOT more pro life than the Catholic Church who represents Christ Himself -
who does not condemn the death penalty. And i follow what they teach - even if you personally disagree with it - it remains acceptable by the Magisterium.
Not even the Pope can change that - but he can suggest it be less frequent in some places around the world.

So - if you are calling me less pro life based on my following the Church - well i guess you see yourself pretty highly?

AND after that short digression of trying to turn this on me....[which it wont work]
The politician you desire in our country - who you would vote for - is taking away religious freedom from Catholics in the medical industry who are usually protected from performing abortions - and yet you say you are more pro life.

I am not following you - but i doubt i can understand the mindset of politics over God's law.
 
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S.ilvio

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You support State Sponsored murder. Not me...
 
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WarriorAngel

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So does Christ - so does Christ.
These are His laws of His Church.

Again, you suggest you are more pro life than God Himself?

YET - i see you give every argument against babies being slaughtered like trash - unless - put on the brakes - it is Obama leading?
 
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S.ilvio

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Do you support the Right of the Romans to crucify whom they viewed as criminals..?
 
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Gwendolyn

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SO since Ireland keeps abortion illegal - what is the average mindset amongst women with the issue?
Are they content - are they less likely to sleep around?

The majority of women who get abortions are married or in long-term relationships and they already have children. Those who "sleep around" are a smaller percentage.
 
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WarriorAngel

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Do you support the Right of the Romans to crucify whom they viewed as criminals..?
Christ chose this method to die for us. So are you saying He should not have died for us?

Did St Paul say 'I will willingly die for my crime - if you can prove i committed one.'...?
Yes he did.

So the capital punishment argument aside - are you saying you support Obama for taking away religious freedom and choice for Catholics??
The majority of women who get abortions are married or in long-term relationships and they already have children. Those who "sleep around" are a smaller percentage.

Interesting. And even more sad.
 
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WarriorAngel

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Obama's not depriving any individual of their religeous freedom. So do you view St Paul as a criminal..?

Obviously you ignore what the Bishops are saying in our country.
They represent Christ on earth.

THEY said he is...

So does what you say trump what they are saying?

So why the defense of Obama to this point where now the babies life is not that important cos well, Obama said it isnt.
 
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