Rate of Abortion is highest in countries where it is illegal

I posted that last one before Gwen responded... but it is a thought directed at those who truly believe that it should not be made illegal.

Gwendolyn said:

I'm with David on this one - educate and legislate. The act of simply making something illegal won't eradicate abortion (like the example of Ireland, where women just go to the UK if they want an abortion) . It will deter it, but true eradication will only happen if we also help people understand just why abortion is horrific. I think the two should be inseparable.

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Agreed.

Gwendolyn said:

I'm with David on this one - educate and legislate. The act of simply making something illegal won't eradicate abortion (like the example of Ireland, where women just go to the UK if they want an abortion) . It will deter it, but true eradication will only happen if we also help people understand just why abortion is horrific. I think the two should be inseparable.

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Absolutely...and by "inseparable" you don't mean "make it illegal and then worry about everything else...".

That would be a fail of alcohol prohibition proportions.

Gwendolyn said:

I'm with David on this one - educate and legislate. The act of simply making something illegal won't eradicate abortion (like the example of Ireland, where women just go to the UK if they want an abortion) . It will deter it, but true eradication will only happen if we also help people understand just why abortion is horrific. I think the two should be inseparable.

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Or hand out harsher punishments.

Joshua G. said:

It is clear you have no desire to listen read carefully. So, I am not saying the following for your benefit but so that I am not misunderstood.

RvW needs to be overturned ASAP. I have been very clear on that. But for a conversation to be worth while, talking points need to be put aside and the messy reality that RoevWade created needs to be recognized by both sides. Nuance is important if we think sincere communication with those on the other side of the fence is important.

Josh

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The pro-abortion side is not going to recognize anything that Roe v Wade has done. They will be willfully ignorant until the cows come home. You cannot have a sensible conversation with someone who is insensible. Pro-abortion people are insensible. I've been at prayer vigils enough near abortion clinics to know the mentality of pro-abortionists.

It just will not work going that route. They have been boiling froggies for too long to know how hot the water really is. And as long as we continue to vote in people like Ruth Bader Ginsburg, we will not win the abortion battle save a miracle.

Gwendolyn said:

I'm with David on this one - educate and legislate. The act of simply making something illegal won't eradicate abortion (like the example of Ireland, where women just go to the UK if they want an abortion) . It will deter it, but true eradication will only happen if we also help people understand just why abortion is horrific. I think the two should be inseparable.

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This route has already been taken. There are tons of documentaries on the horrific nature of abortion. There are prayer vigils at probably nearly every abortion clinic that has existed. I don't think we realize is that we are dealing with a movement and a people that choose to be willfully ignorant and do not care about the nature of abortion.

You cannot have a moral society when there are immoral laws legislated. Abortion should be illegal, period. It doesn't matter if women will go someone else or do it illegally. Thats like saying terrorism shouldn't be illegal because terrorists will go to other countries to commit terrorism. It is an illogical standpoint. It should be illegal because it is wrong. Simple fact. Whether someone chooses to do that wrong and face the consequences is up to them and their own free will, but legalizing something simply because they might do it somewhere else is preposterous

Which countries does the article mention? All industrialized countries except for Ireland have legal abortions. Are they refering to poverty stricken african nations? If so whose counting the fetuses in the trashcans? It cant be arab nations where just by their population growth would exclude high rates of abortions.

Are their rates higher than in Romania where some estimates put the abortion rate as high as 80% that a woman has had atleast one abortion? Or higher than in China where abortion is practised even after the child is born? Infant exposure in China happens legally where a girl born in a hospital with any medical problem will be thrown in the waste recepticle by the delivery doctor himself.

The article is another demonic attempt by the west to justify their cultures immorality.

Davidnic said:

And I understand that. But the drive to educate and to make it criminal are not exclusive. They can be done at the same time. That is my point.

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Ciminalize and educate at the same time...

StThomasMore said:

The pro-abortion side is not going to recognize anything that Roe v Wade has done. They will be willfully ignorant until the cows come home. You cannot have a sensible conversation with someone who is insensible. Pro-abortion people are insensible. I've been at prayer vigils enough near abortion clinics to know the mentality of pro-abortionists.

It just will not work going that route. They have been boiling froggies for too long to know how hot the water really is. And as long as we continue to vote in people like Ruth Bader Ginsburg, we will not win the abortion battle save a miracle.



This route has already been taken. There are tons of documentaries on the horrific nature of abortion. There are prayer vigils at probably nearly every abortion clinic that has existed. I don't think we realize is that we are dealing with a movement and a people that choose to be willfully ignorant and do not care about the nature of abortion.

You cannot have a moral society when there are immoral laws legislated. Abortion should be illegal, period. It doesn't matter if women will go someone else or do it illegally. Thats like saying terrorism shouldn't be illegal because terrorists will go to other countries to commit terrorism. It is an illogical standpoint. It should be illegal because it is wrong. Simple fact. Whether someone chooses to do that wrong and face the consequences is up to them and their own free will, but legalizing something simply because they might do it somewhere else is preposterous

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Abortion is wrong. you need to get with it and stop supporting it, STM.

Or higher than in China where abortion is practised even after the child is born? Infant exposure in China happens legally where a girl born in a hospital with any medical problem will be thrown in the waste recepticle by the delivery doctor himself.

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Wow, legally? Can you provide documentation of that?

MikeK said:

Agreed. Educate, make it criminal, and do whatever is possible to ease the burdens of women who might (for any reason, no matter how seemingly trivial) want to procure an abortion.

I do worry that criminalising abortion might even popularise it more than it is now. Nobody likes to see their "rights" being taken away.

At any rate, I am in favor of doing what we can to reduce abortions to the lowest number possible by any means necesarry that do not directly or indirectly lead to the loss of more human life.

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Well the numbers are radically less in France ,Holland and Germany ,as
are teenage pregnancies .As I have often thought,there is huge hypocrisy among so called
pro lifers, in the U.S. etc ,than in more secular countries.
I will find the figures when I have time. There are far too many people with large planks in their
eyes in the RCC .The pope gives the guidelines ,rules for Catholics who wish to follow them,but
no one is obliged by these laws ,they are volontary.It would't be so bad if there was not so
many double standards among especially Catholic men in following these laws .

underheaven said:

Well the numbers are radically less in France ,Holland and Germany ,as
are teenage pregnancies .As I have often thought,there is huge hypocrisy among so called
pro lifers, in the U.S. etc ,than in more secular countries.
I will find the figures when I have time. There are far too many people with large planks in their
eyes in the RCC .The pope gives the guidelines ,rules for Catholics who wish to follow them,but
no one is obliged by these laws ,they are volontary.It would't be so bad if there was not so
many double standards among especially Catholic men in following these laws .

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So how do you explain non a pro life Atheist..?

You use the word voluntary? How many babies do you know volunteered to be masscred..?

underheaven said:

Well the numbers are radically less in France ,Holland and Germany ,as
are teenage pregnancies .As I have often thought,there is huge hypocrisy among so called
pro lifers, in the U.S. etc ,than in more secular countries.
I will find the figures when I have time. There are far too many people with large planks in their
eyes in the RCC .The pope gives the guidelines ,rules for Catholics who wish to follow them,but
no one is obliged by these laws ,they are volontary.It would't be so bad if there was not so
many double standards among especially Catholic men in following these laws .

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You're acting as if we are trying to legislate against pre-marital sex or condoms here. This is a human rights law.

And as far as men go, we can't help how biology works. However, if abortion becomes illegal then it makes sense that if a man helps in an abortion that he broke the law and I think it makes sense that he (or she depending on who the abortionist is) would recieve the tougher legal penalty (in terms of prison time, losing liscence, etc) but that's a different (although equally important discussion).

And if a man causes a women to lose her baby through harmful intent (domestic abuse, etc) or is found to have coerced her into aborting the human then it makes sense that he would be prosecuted.

There are of course a lot of sticky issues here that won't be fun to iron out but I think that the vast majority of pro-lifers for illegalizing abortion would equally hold men responsible if they played any part in the human death.

But, I think more important than that is that countries like France should continue to work hard to keep the US off of the UN Human Rights Council because many of our States have the death penalty. I mean last year alone 43 people total were killed total in the as a result of the death penalty and possibly half of them had a botched trial and could have been innocent.

By the way, that was sarcasm. To set the record straight, I am not for the death penalty and it is truly a tadgedy. But it's interesting that countries will fight tooth and nail against the US's (admittedly) barbaric policy still upheld in many States yet fight with the same vigor for the right to abort innocents. that's why it' difficult to take seriously what France, Germany, Spain, Italy, etc have to say about the U.S. track record on human rights because their own is not better. It's like us criticizing the EU for poor financial management. It would be jsut as laughable if it weren't about death.

Josh

Joshua G. said:

Gwen, what's going on here? If you're just playing devil's advocate then please say so because right now I am.... I don't know. I'm at a loss for words.

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Right now in Canada no political figure will talk openly about abortion, because it will always be a lose lose proposition. They will be skewered no matter what they say, if not in their own riding, they will lose tons of votes for others in their party in other tidings. Views on abortion here never seem to go past the 50%s into a higher proportion, and that isn't enough to formulate something. Political inertia will mean nothing gets done.

In the US, Republicans use abortion as a wedge issue and to bring in funding. It should be no suprise that they have never made significant gains against it - there is no benefit and much to lose. (Remember that most Catholics - a significant anti-abortion voice, were Democrats before the abortion issue was important politically.)

The idea of having a national vote to decide is a disaster - who would support actually having it? Such votes need to have more than a bare minimum to pass in many cases. Would it stand up constitutionally?

The law on these issues reflect what people feel about them. It could probably be useful to persue ledgisation in a similar way to the smoking lobby - incrementally as attitudes change. Education could be huge - in Canada most people have a totally inaccurate idea what our abortion laws actually say, which may well be why they are ok with them.

If people want to stand and scream "Make abortion illegal now nothing else is enough, and if you don't agree with my method you advocate killing babies" then fine, but they are misrepresenting others which is a lie. It is no different than saying those who think work toward peach and international justice on a day to day basis in a way likely to bring people to a point of understanding and buying in are ok with torture, starving children, and genocide. But I don't think those are the people who actually put a stop to legal or illegal abortion. It will be people like Francesca Matthews-Green who has an organization dedicated to helping those on the pro-choice and pro-life side talk together in a non-confrontational atmosphere so they can actually understand their basic concerns, thought and fears. That is the kind of thing that can lead to building consensus.

Abortion is a kind of genocide, a massacre. Great as courts of international justice are, they only work because many people actually support them internationally. Ultimately they are only effective at preventing massacres in places where people do not support them if you change the people or change their conditions.

Joshua G. said:

Wow, legally? Can you provide documentation of that?

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No, I don't think so - but it is a rather important point that in the not too distant past, infanticide was more common. I think there is probably a relation to the availability of abortion and rates of infanticide which has decreased dramatically worldwide.

Not sure what that would mean as far as addressing either.

MKJ said:

Views on abortion here never seem to go past the 50%s into a higher proportion, and that isn't enough to formulate something.

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Wrong.

In Ireland a proposal to legalise Divorce was passed by a very slim majority. But its now part of the Irish statute Book...

SO since Ireland keeps abortion illegal - what is the average mindset amongst women with the issue?
Are they content - are they less likely to sleep around?

WarriorAngel said:

SO since Ireland keeps abortion illegal - what is the average mindset amongst women with the issue?
Are they content - are they less likely to sleep around?

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Oh there's alot of sleeping around. The numbers of single mothers is increasing. But, thankfully, we have humane social security programmes that support these women, provide them with housing and have social workers who regularly check in on how both mother and child are doing.

Hence the reason some use for having an abortion, not being able to afford it, doesn't exist...

How are you a US Democrat... but live in Ireland?

Joshua G. said:

How are you a US Democrat... but live in Ireland?

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I'm an Irish citizen, living in Ireland, who takes a keen interest in American politics...