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Yes, it would require me adding to the creed. Howevever, the creed is not Scripture. Also, the part about the living and the dead does not change anything from what I see.CCWoody said:That would require that you add a great deal of your own theology to the creed to make it fit. In plain language, it simply says that the Lord will come to judge BOTH the living and the dead, not to initiate a 1000 year reign.
Like it or not, all three of those creeds are Amillennial.
And, yes, I do think that many of the OT prophecies spoke of 2 different things.
BTW, hang around my Bible study for a year, and I'll be sure to give you plenty of verses which are difficult for Premills. I'm very persuasive. So far I think there are only a couple whom have not yet converted to some form of Amillennialism.
I have a similar success rate with Calvinism.
Though, not really, I, but the Lord though me.
Wanna come play here?theseed said:Yes, it would require me adding to the creed. Howevever, the creed is not Scripture. Also, the part about the living and the dead does not change anything from what I see.
Also, any verse you post will have been explained by some premillenialist somewhere.
theseed said:
What is a futurist?
About postmillennialists and the Reformation, the Second Helvetic Confession, an early Reformed creed, condemned dreams of a golden age before the Second Coming.theseed said:I think many (Reformers) were postmillennialist.
I haven't studied the amillennial perspective much, but I have begun reading some of the work from amillennialist Professor David Engelsma. He writes:We further condemn Jewish dreams that there will be a golden age on earth before the Day of Judgment, and that the pious, having subdued all their godless enemies, will possess all the kingdoms of the earth. For evangelical truth in Matt., chs. 24 and 25, and Luke, ch. 18, and apostolic teaching in II Thess., ch. 2, and II Tim., chs. 3 and 4, present something quite different.
http://www.ccel.org/creeds/helvetic.htm
Like premillennialists, Engelsma believes in a coming apostasy and the blessed hope of the Second Coming of Christ. He writes:The damning judgement upon postmillennialism by the Second Helvetic Confession reflected the theology of the early Reformers, Luther and Calvin, as well as Bullinger, author of the creed. More importantly, it is the stand of the confessions that bind Reformed and Presbyterian churches and Christians today.
http://www.mountainretreatorg.net/reading/article.cgi?id=8As a confessional, biblical Reformed denomination, the Protestant Reformed Churches are not open to postmillennialism. It is their solemn duty from the soon-coming Christ to expose the hopes of postmillennialism as "Jewish Dreams."
We do urgently warn our own people and all who will hear us that the kingdom of the beast will come. Indeed, it is coming now. Its features are distinct in a lawless society, an apostate church, and a uniting world of nations.
Rather then be deluded by "Jewish Dreams" Reformed Christians and their children must heed sober Christian reality.
Be prepared for the Antichrist!
Hope for the second coming of Christ! Hope only for the second coming of Christ!
Well, John Macarthur is dispensational and Reformed. I don't know about the secret rapture though......Zorobabel said:I've never met a reformed person that believes in the dispensational secret rapture.
But in 1944, it saw a turning point, when:It may be surprising, to some, to learn that Dispensationalism was developed and spread during its first 100 years by those within a Reformed, Calvinistic tradition. It had only been in the last 75 to 50 years that Dispensationalism and some of its beliefs were disseminated in any significant way outside of the orbit of Calvinism.
The organizers of the prophetic movement in America were predominantly Calvinists. In 1876 a group led by Nathaniel West, James H. Brookes, William J. Eerdman, and Henry M. Parsons, all Presbyterians, together with Baptist A. J. Gordon, . . . These early gatherings, which became the focal points for the prophetic side of their leaders' activities, were clearly Calvinistic. Presbyterians and Calvinist Baptists predominated, while the number of Methodists was extremely small. . . . Such facts can hardly be accidental.
Proof of Marsden's point above is supplied by Samuel H. Kellogg-himself a Presbyterian and Princeton graduate-with his breakdown of the predominately dispensational Prophecy Conference in New York City in 1878. Kellogg classified the list of those that signed the call for the Conference as follows:
Presbyterians 31
Baptists 22
Congregationalists 10
United Presbyterians 10
Reformed Episcopalians 10
Episcopalians 10
Methodists 6
Adventists 5
Reformed (Dutch) 3
Lutherans 1
Kellogg concluded that "the proportion of Augustinians in the whole to be eighty-eight per cent." "The significance of this is emphasized," continues Kellogg, "by the contrasted fact that the Methodists, although one of the largest denominations of Christians in the country, were represented by only six names." Kellogg estimates that "analyses of similar gatherings since held on both sides of the Atlantic, would yield a similar result."
So, I believe that even today there are a lot more pre-trib believers among Presybterians than you would think. But the politics is such that they can't get far in seminary or in the denomination.In 1944, Southern Presbyterians issued a report from a committee investigating the compatibility of dispensationalism with the Westminster Confession of Faith. The committee ruled dispensationalism was not in harmony with the Church's Confession. This "report of 1944 was a crippling blow to any future that dispensational premillennialism might have within Southern Presbyterianism." This ruling effectively moved Dallas graduates away from ministry within Reformed denominations toward the independent Bible Church movement.
The standard Reformed view is amillennial. Most Calvinists I know are partial-preterist, amillennialists...as am I.Cary.Melvin said:What are the Reformed Churches views on the end times?
Amillinial, Pre-millenial, Post-millenial?
If Pre-millenial, do you believe in a Pre, Mid or Post Tribulation Rapture?
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