Rape in the bible

ViaCrucis said:

Yeah, and again, when the Prophets engaged in criticism and condemnation of Israel's neighbors (and also of their own people) it was about reciprocation, reaping what one has sown. Babylon would experience the same tragedies it had visited upon other nations--that's the point of the text here.

-CryptoLutheran

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So you're saying that god DID cause the Babylonians to be raped and their children killed and that it was ok? (because they had done it too)

So my original question remains, is it ok if god has me rape you?

Do you think those women had ever raped people and killed other peoples babies? (not that such a question is the moral compass anyway)

Kiritsugu Emiyah said:

In Isaiah 13 god judges Babylon and one of his judgements is particularly scary. v16



If you read the whole chapter it seems apparent than these things are a result of his judgements because he uses statements like "I command, I will, I declare, my wrath" etc etc

I don't understand how Christians get past this. Yes they were sinners, yes they refused to repent, yes they disobeyed and angered god but does that make it morally justifiable to rape them and beat their babies heads against rocks?

If you sinned and you refused, absolutely refused to repent and god judged you by having me attack you and rape you, if he "stirred" me up like he did the Medes... would it then be ok for me to rape you? Would him having me rape you be ok for him to do?

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It was an old covenant, in the old testament, during a more primitive period. Part of the Bible is to share the bad old days, and things not to do. <><

ParentofChildren said:

It was an old covenant, in the old testament, during a more primitive period. Part of the Bible is to share the bad old days, and things not to do. <><

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But this was god himself making things happen, not the actions of his followers that might have made mistakes.

Kiritsugu Emiyah said:

But this was god himself making things happen, not the actions of his followers that might have made mistakes.

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If it's of any consolation, this isn't exactly the worst thing God has ever done. He had parents gobble their children up for dinner in Jeremiah 19:9.

alexiscurious said:

If it's of any consolation, this isn't exactly the worst thing God has ever done. He had parents gobble their children up for dinner in Jeremiah 19:9.

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I had forgotten about that one....

Originally Posted by Kiritsugu Emiyah View Post
But this was god himself making things happen, not the actions of his followers that might have made mistakes.
If it's of any consolation, this isn't exactly the worst thing God has ever done. He had parents gobble their children up for dinner in Jeremiah 19:9.


The people were warned by prophets of approaching tragedy and to repent to avoid it as they understood within their reasoning 3,000 years ago. Whether all of this could have been avoided or not is undetermined but God was clearly trying to reach them by the prophets and these prophets were trying to understand as best as possible & relay their warning since repentance is what God is ultimately seeking from us. As Via Crucis, Parent of Children, & others have said nothing is being hidden in the Bible.

In the Gospel understanding we have:

Luke 9:51-56New King James Version (NKJV)

A Samaritan Village Rejects the Savior

51 Now it came to pass, when the time had come for Him to be received up, that He steadfastly set His face to go to Jerusalem, 52 and sent messengers before His face. And as they went, they entered a village of the Samaritans, to prepare for Him. 53 But they did not receive Him, because His face was set for the journey to Jerusalem. 54 And when His disciples James and John saw this, they said, &#8220;Lord, do You want us to command fire to come down from heaven and consume them, just as Elijah did?&#8221;[a]

55 But He turned and rebuked them, and said, &#8220;You do not know what manner of spirit you are of. 56 For the Son of Man did not come to destroy men&#8217;s lives but to save them.&#8221;[c] And they went to another village.



Luke 13:1-5New King James Version (NKJV)

Repent or Perish

13 There were present at that season some who told Him about the Galileans whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices. 2 And Jesus answered and said to them, &#8220;Do you suppose that these Galileans were worse sinners than all other Galileans, because they suffered such things? 3 I tell you, no; but unless you repent you will all likewise perish. 4 Or those eighteen on whom the tower in Siloam fell and killed them, do you think that they were worse sinners than all other men who dwelt in Jerusalem? 5 I tell you, no; but unless you repent you will all likewise perish.&#8221;


The Lord calls us to repentance and mercy within a fallen world. He does not sadistically intervene on a most personal level for sins and only perform miracles for extra good behavior. The holy prophets were understanding the best they could for their time and God took it upon Himself to become as one of us to preach His Gospel since man could not fully receive it (& still often cannot). Man killed the prophets & killed God in the Lord Jesus Christ.

Mankind was performing the barbarism of 3,000 + years ago & still is God has been trying to set us straight since the fall of Adam & Eve.

Lukaris

God had people raped and killed and eaten... thats not saving anyone.

What kind of a savior threatens to have you raped?

Kiritsugu Emiyah said:

Lukaris

God had people raped and killed and eaten... thats not saving anyone.

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No, people did these things to each other under the sway of Satan. In the anguish of what he saw going on around him, receiving prophecy from God, trying to sort out justice & mercy etc., Isaiah laid it all out and concluded it was the way of Satan in which evil had prevailed.

Isaiah 14:12 New King James Version (NKJV)

&#8220;How you are fallen from heaven,
O Lucifer, son of the morning!
How you are cut down to the ground,
You who weakened the nations!

Further on:

Isaiah 14:17 New King James Version (NKJV)

Who made the world as a wilderness
And destroyed its cities,
Who did not open the house of his prisoners?&#8217;


While I do not understand all of Isaiah 14, the overall message is that the Lord establishes His church (of the Lord Jesus Christ) in Zion & and the poor shall trust in it (Isaiah 14:32)


Isaiah 14:32 New King James Version (NKJV)

What will they answer the messengers of the nation?
That the Lord has founded Zion,
And the poor of His people shall take refuge in it.


https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Isaiah14:32&version=NKJV

Indeed the Lord Jesus Christ recounted Satan (Lucifer) fall from heaven with 70 disciples he had sent out.


Luke 10:17-18 New King James Version (NKJV)

The Seventy Return with Joy

17 Then the seventy returned with joy, saying, &#8220;Lord, even the demons are subject to us in Your name.&#8221;

18 And He said to them, &#8220;I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven.


Lastly, I want to ask you why do you insist our God Himself would do such horrible things? These are horrible things holy prophets experienced around them struggling to convey God's plan of salvation to us. I see you identify yourself as a Buddhist (I do not claim much knowledge of it) but there are clearly lurid lessons in it also to bring people to some sort of acknowledgement of their issues:

http://buddhism.about.com/od/tibetandeities/fl/Yama-Buddhist-Icon-of-Hell-and-Impermanence.htm

Lukaris

Have you read the chapter for yourself? (Isaiah 13)

In that chapter god specifically says that he himself is bringing an army upon them that will rape and kill them and he calls it the day of the Lord and his wrath.

In Jeremiah 19.9 God says something even more horrifying
"I will make them eat the flesh of their sons of daughters"

Here is the chapter for you

Isaiah 13

1 The burden of Babylon, which Isaiah the son of Amoz did see.
2 Lift ye up a banner upon the high mountain, exalt the voice unto them, shake the hand, that they may go into the gates of the nobles.
3 I have commanded my sanctified ones, I have also called my mighty ones for mine anger, even them that rejoice in my highness.
4 The noise of a multitude in the mountains, like as of a great people; a tumultuous noise of the kingdoms of nations gathered together: the Lord of hosts mustereth the host of the battle.
5 They come from a far country, from the end of heaven, even the Lord, and the weapons of his indignation, to destroy the whole land.
6 Howl ye; for the day of the Lord is at hand; it shall come as a destruction from the Almighty.
7 Therefore shall all hands be faint, and every man's heart shall melt:
8 And they shall be afraid: pangs and sorrows shall take hold of them; they shall be in pain as a woman that travaileth: they shall be amazed one at another; their faces shall be as flames.
9 Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.
10 For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.
11 And I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible.
12 I will make a man more precious than fine gold; even a man than the golden wedge of Ophir.
13 Therefore I will shake the heavens, and the earth shall remove out of her place, in the wrath of the Lord of hosts, and in the day of his fierce anger.
14 And it shall be as the chased roe, and as a sheep that no man taketh up: they shall every man turn to his own people, and flee every one into his own land.
15 Every one that is found shall be thrust through; and every one that is joined unto them shall fall by the sword.
16 Their children also shall be dashed to pieces before their eyes; their houses shall be spoiled, and their wives ravished.
17 Behold, I will stir up the Medes against them, which shall not regard silver; and as for gold, they shall not delight in it.
18 Their bows also shall dash the young men to pieces; and they shall have no pity on the fruit of the womb; their eyes shall not spare children.
19 And Babylon, the glory of kingdoms, the beauty of the Chaldees' excellency, shall be as when God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah.
20 It shall never be inhabited, neither shall it be dwelt in from generation to generation: neither shall the Arabian pitch tent there; neither shall the shepherds make their fold there.
21 But wild beasts of the desert shall lie there; and their houses shall be full of doleful creatures; and owls shall dwell there, and satyrs shall dance there.
22 And the wild beasts of the islands shall cry in their desolate houses, and dragons in their pleasant palaces: and her time is near to come, and her days shall not be prolonged.

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From KE post #70:

Have you read the chapter for yourself? (Isaiah 13)

In that chapter god specifically says that he himself is bringing an army upon them that will rape and kill them and he calls it the day of the Lord and his wrath.

In Jeremiah 19.9 God says something even more horrifying
"I will make them eat the flesh of their sons of daughters"


Yes, I have read the whole book of Isaiah and the rest of the Bible and continue to. The proclamation against Babylon you cite from Isaiah 13 extends into chapter 14 and in chapter 14 verses 12-21 explain the role of Satan and the consequences that will come upon him and his followers. They will suffer the consequences for the horrible things you personally attribute to God. What you fail to understand is that, through the prophet, God is explaining the vey evil they will do & its consequences. From what the sinners do will come upon their heads in divine wrath; included in this are Babylon, Assyria, & Philistia. In Isaiah 14:1-2, that a remnant of the house of Jacob (tracing back to Isaiah 10:20-34) and a remnant of righteous Gentiles will be joined to them although the overall pagan identities (Babylon, Assyria etc.)will be destroyed, the identity of Israel will be preserved.

Re Jeremiah 19:9, again, through the prophets, God is warning Israel of consequences that will come upon them from prior sin. In Jeremiah 19:4-5, child sacrifice to pagan deities was being committed. What is being described in 19:9 is a warningof cannibalism that will occur when Jerusalem would be under siege by the Babylonians (also recounted in Lamentations 2:20).

The chapters say that god causes those things, I highlighted those statements for you.

Kiritsugu Emiyah said:

The chapters say that god causes those things, I highlighted those statements for you.

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We have both made our points and must respectfully disagree.

Lukaris said:

We have both made our points and must respectfully disagree.

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You deny that the bolded portions in the passages I provided to you say that god caused those things?

"I will make them eat the flesh of their sons of daughters"

and the various bolded words in Chapter 13 of Isaiah.

You don't think god caused it when the passages say he caused it?

A warning that he is going to do it... is still him doing it.

Lukaris said:

We have both made our points and must respectfully disagree.

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Oh and I will not respectfully disagree, we're talking about women being raped, burned, cannibalism etc... justifying these things is horrifying and not worthy of respect.

Humanity and culture was very different 3-5 thousand years ago. Life was cheap, women were property, abortion was post birth disposal, and many faiths practiced human sacrifice. One can not read the history, poetry, or prophecy of thousands of years ago and judge by today's civility. Our Bible was not written as one book to be read through one prism.

ParentofChildren said:

Humanity and culture was very different 3-5 thousand years ago. Life was cheap, women were property, abortion was post birth disposal, and many faiths practiced human sacrifice. One can not read the history, poetry, or prophecy of thousands of years ago and judge by today's civility. Our Bible was not written as one book to be read through one prism.

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But those were God's commandments and actions, you don't think god knew that rape was wrong back then?

Kiritsugu Emiyah said:

well it's slightly off topic but if you ever stop believing in god I don't think you'll suddenly desire to rape or kill people. I've never wanted to do either of those things and I'd actually try to prevent you from doing it.

Does the verse appear to you as god simply allowing bad things to happen rather than commanding them? If he simply allowed it, what's the difference? Both imply that he condones them.

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It has nothing to do with believing in God or not. It is the natural state of mankind, and without the kinds of restraints and controls and beliefs in place, that is what people will revert to soon enough.
People follow the tone set by their leaders, and it is a rare person with the courage and conviction to resist that lead. It is corrosive, and soon enough bad becomes good, and good becomes bad in the hearts and minds of the society.
The humanitarian instincts of our society, that you subscribe to, are very much the exception in human history, and that was very true of the period of time in which the wars of the Biblical conquest were set.


The Bible says what it says. The character of God has a terribleness to it that is fearsome, and employs evil to destroy evil, for as Jesus himself says, a house divided against itself will not stand.
It also contains the antidote for evil within its stories and its themes, only for those with the ears to hear of course.

The Bible is very much a work for adults, and not for the faint of heart. It is a work of faith, with the Spirit within the scribes and prophets in communication with the Spirit that abides within the believer who reads. Those bereft of the Spirit to understand will forever find the words of the Bible cryptic, and even offensive. The message is only for the sheep of the flock who will recognize the voice of the shepherd.

But the shepherd kills burns and rapes people. I saying that if there was no god in your life you wouldn't suddenly start killing or raping or hurting people.