Rape in the bible

In Isaiah 13 god judges Babylon and one of his judgements is particularly scary. v16

Their children also shall be dashed to pieces before their eyes; their houses shall be spoiled, and their wives ravished.

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If you read the whole chapter it seems apparent than these things are a result of his judgements because he uses statements like "I command, I will, I declare, my wrath" etc etc

I don't understand how Christians get past this. Yes they were sinners, yes they refused to repent, yes they disobeyed and angered god but does that make it morally justifiable to rape them and beat their babies heads against rocks?

If you sinned and you refused, absolutely refused to repent and god judged you by having me attack you and rape you, if he "stirred" me up like he did the Medes... would it then be ok for me to rape you? Would him having me rape you be ok for him to do?

Babylonian soldiers did the same things when they invaded foreign lands. God was simply stating the Medes would do this back to them.

Human rights ultimately come from God. I can't for instance, abrogate your right to life and kill you, or abrogate your right to the property you have earned and steal from you. Governments exist to enforce these rights, not trample them. So a government similarly cannot rightly abrogate the life of an innocent person and have that person killed - if you have not committed a capital crime such as murder, you have not forfeited your right to life. If you have not defrauded or stolen from someone, you have not forfeited your right to the property you have earned. These are two general principles that are from God, if you act within most common bounds of decency, you have not forfeited them by your deeds, and no individual, group, or government can rightly abrogate your rights. God however, can abrogate human rights if he chooses to do so, since human rights came from him ultimately. Humans and groups of humans, even governments of humans, are accountable to God, but God is accountable to no one.

Isaiah 13

1 The burden of Babylon, which Isaiah the son of Amoz did see.
2 Lift ye up a banner upon the high mountain, exalt the voice unto them, shake the hand, that they may go into the gates of the nobles.
3 I have commanded my sanctified ones, I have also called my mighty ones for mine anger, even them that rejoice in my highness.
4 The noise of a multitude in the mountains, like as of a great people; a tumultuous noise of the kingdoms of nations gathered together: the Lord of hosts mustereth the host of the battle.
5 They come from a far country, from the end of heaven, even the Lord, and the weapons of his indignation, to destroy the whole land.
6 Howl ye; for the day of the Lord is at hand; it shall come as a destruction from the Almighty.
7 Therefore shall all hands be faint, and every man's heart shall melt:
8 And they shall be afraid: pangs and sorrows shall take hold of them; they shall be in pain as a woman that travaileth: they shall be amazed one at another; their faces shall be as flames.
9 Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.
10 For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.
11 And I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible.
12 I will make a man more precious than fine gold; even a man than the golden wedge of Ophir.
13 Therefore I will shake the heavens, and the earth shall remove out of her place, in the wrath of the Lord of hosts, and in the day of his fierce anger.
14 And it shall be as the chased roe, and as a sheep that no man taketh up: they shall every man turn to his own people, and flee every one into his own land.
15 Every one that is found shall be thrust through; and every one that is joined unto them shall fall by the sword.
16 Their children also shall be dashed to pieces before their eyes; their houses shall be spoiled, and their wives ravished.
17 Behold, I will stir up the Medes against them, which shall not regard silver; and as for gold, they shall not delight in it.
18 Their bows also shall dash the young men to pieces; and they shall have no pity on the fruit of the womb; their eyes shall not spare children.
19 And Babylon, the glory of kingdoms, the beauty of the Chaldees' excellency, shall be as when God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah.
20 It shall never be inhabited, neither shall it be dwelt in from generation to generation: neither shall the Arabian pitch tent there; neither shall the shepherds make their fold there.
21 But wild beasts of the desert shall lie there; and their houses shall be full of doleful creatures; and owls shall dwell there, and satyrs shall dance there.
22 And the wild beasts of the islands shall cry in their desolate houses, and dragons in their pleasant palaces: and her time is near to come, and her days shall not be prolonged.

If you read the whole thing, it shows that all this was a result of his judgement. God consistently says "I WILL" he even stirs up the Medes to do it.

Sketcher said:

God however, can abrogate human rights if he chooses to do so, since human rights came from him ultimately. Humans and groups of humans, even governments of humans, are accountable to God, but God is accountable to no one.

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So you think that god can rape people if he wants to?

Kiritsugu Emiyah said:

So you think that god can rape people if he wants to?

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Human rights come from him, "the Lord gives, and the Lord takes away." God himself wouldn't rape anybody, though.

Here's a better picture

Isaiah 13

1 The burden of Babylon, which Isaiah the son of Amoz did see.
2 Lift ye up a banner upon the high mountain, exalt the voice unto them, shake the hand, that they may go into the gates of the nobles.
3 I have commanded my sanctified ones, I have also called my mighty ones for mine anger, even them that rejoice in my highness.
4 The noise of a multitude in the mountains, like as of a great people; a tumultuous noise of the kingdoms of nations gathered together: the Lord of hosts mustereth the host of the battle.
5 They come from a far country, from the end of heaven, even the Lord, and the weapons of his indignation, to destroy the whole land.
6 Howl ye; for the day of the Lord is at hand; it shall come as a destruction from the Almighty.
7 Therefore shall all hands be faint, and every man's heart shall melt:
8 And they shall be afraid: pangs and sorrows shall take hold of them; they shall be in pain as a woman that travaileth: they shall be amazed one at another; their faces shall be as flames.
9 Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.
10 For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.
11 And I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible.
12 I will make a man more precious than fine gold; even a man than the golden wedge of Ophir.
13 Therefore I will shake the heavens, and the earth shall remove out of her place, in the wrath of the Lord of hosts, and in the day of his fierce anger.
14 And it shall be as the chased roe, and as a sheep that no man taketh up: they shall every man turn to his own people, and flee every one into his own land.
15 Every one that is found shall be thrust through; and every one that is joined unto them shall fall by the sword.
16 Their children also shall be dashed to pieces before their eyes; their houses shall be spoiled, and their wives ravished.
17 Behold, I will stir up the Medes against them, which shall not regard silver; and as for gold, they shall not delight in it.
18 Their bows also shall dash the young men to pieces; and they shall have no pity on the fruit of the womb; their eyes shall not spare children.
19 And Babylon, the glory of kingdoms, the beauty of the Chaldees' excellency, shall be as when God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah.
20 It shall never be inhabited, neither shall it be dwelt in from generation to generation: neither shall the Arabian pitch tent there; neither shall the shepherds make their fold there.
21 But wild beasts of the desert shall lie there; and their houses shall be full of doleful creatures; and owls shall dwell there, and satyrs shall dance there.
22 And the wild beasts of the islands shall cry in their desolate houses, and dragons in their pleasant palaces: and her time is near to come, and her days shall not be prolonged.

What's wrong with punishing wicked nations that built themselves on rapine and conquest?

Sketcher said:

Human rights come from him, "the Lord gives, and the Lord takes away." God himself wouldn't rape anybody, though.

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Well he did actually... he caused the Medes to rape Babylonians. He also didn't ask Mary for her permission to be impregnated.

But you think if he DID ... it would be ok?

Kiritsugu Emiyah said:

Well he did actually... he caused the Medes to rape Babylonians.

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Which isn't God raping people.

Kiritsugu Emiyah said:

He also didn't ask Mary for her permission to be impregnated.

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Which was neither rape nor intercourse.

Kiritsugu Emiyah said:

But you think if he DID ... it would be ok?

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The Lord is the only one who can rightly take what people have no right to.

Sketcher

Which isn't God raping people.

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... right, it's god making people rape other people.

Which was neither rape nor intercourse.

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... really?

The Lord is the only one who can rightly take what people have no right to.

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So he can... if he wants to... rape people?

So, he could stir me up to rape you, and that would be ok?

Kiritsugu Emiyah said:

... right, it's god making people rape other people.

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It's actually God granting success to a cruel army to punish a nation that had a cruel army. Let's not lose sight of that.

Kiritsugu Emiyah said:

... really?

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Yes, really.

Kiritsugu Emiyah said:

So, he could stir me up to rape you, and that would be ok?

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God could in theory abrogate any of my rights, but you being stirred up to violate them is probably not of divine origin. That's the trick, people can claim that he has appointed them, but that doesn't mean that he has. In Isaiah 13, we have Isaiah relaying what God said that he actually did appoint the Medes to punish Babylon. Nobody today really has that.

Sketcher


But if he did have me rape you like he did them that would be ok?

Kiritsugu Emiyah said:

Sketcher


But if he did have me rape you like he did them that would be ok?

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God can inflict any sentence his perfect will wants.

God pronounced his judgement on them in his anger and stirred up the Medes to do it

Kiritsugu Emiyah said:

God pronounced his judgement on them in his anger and stirred up the Medes to do it

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And God was right to do so.

Sketcher said:

God can inflict any sentence his perfect will wants.

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Ok ty

Sketcher said:

And God was right to do so.

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... ok

KE,

Our moral sense is a reflection of God's, because we are made in His image, as Genesis says. The difference is that our moral sense is imperfect because we are steeped in a world filled with sin, and we usually do not have all the facts.

Elsewhere in Scripture it declares that God's judgments are altogether true and righteous, and that He will be proven innocent in all of them. I don't mean to depreciate your moral sense at all, because all of us need to prove ourselves by the Scripture, to make sure we're not in error, so these questions matter. But at some point, for us to really doubt God's righteousness is like the pot criticizing the potter.

There is always a back story to God's actions. For instance, He delayed the Israelites for 400 years before they entered their promised land, because "the error of the Amorites is not yet fulfilled". He did not want His people ruining their consciences by slaughtering a people who did not yet deserve it. In so doing, he condemned the Israelites to their own brutal persecution in Egypt, including forced infanticide. That's how serious about the matter He was. And it shows how intricately and sublimely He weaves the threads of history to suit His purposes.

Whenever God pronounces a judgment, you can be sure it is righteous. And very often He simply withdraws His protection and lets natural forces take their course - AKA, choices bring consequences. That's why it says "He catches the proud in their own conceits".

paul1149 said:

KE,

Our moral sense is a reflection of God's, because we are made in His image, as Genesis says. The difference is that our moral sense is imperfect because we are steeped in a world filled with sin, and we usually do not have all the facts.

Elsewhere in Scripture it declares that God's judgments are altogether true and righteous, and that He will be proven innocent in all of them. I don't mean to depreciate your moral sense at all, because all of us need to prove ourselves by the Scripture, to make sure we're not in error, so these questions matter. But at some point, for us to really doubt God's righteousness is like the pot criticizing the potter.

There is always a back story to God's actions. For instance, He delayed the Israelites for 400 years before they entered their promised land, because "the error of the Amorites is not yet fulfilled". He did not want His people ruining their consciences by slaughtering a people who did not yet deserve it. In so doing, he condemned the Israelites to their own brutal persecution in Egypt, including forced infanticide. That's how serious about the matter He was. And it shows how intricately and sublimely He weaves the threads of history to suit His purposes.

Whenever God pronounces a judgment, you can be sure it is righteous. And very often He simply withdraws His protection and lets natural forces take their course - AKA, choices bring consequences. That's why it says "He catches the proud in their own conceits".

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So he can rightly have you raped if he deems fit?

He wouldn't do that. God is not the author of sin. Sin entered through Adam.