Qvestyun

johnd · Jan 26, 2004

Oh, ha ha. I get it.

I was softening the blow by the spelling to simply make the point I was taking "goy" at it's driest / most literal definition.

Henaynei · Jan 26, 2004

Multi-Elis · Jan 27, 2004

I have encountered many Jewish people in my life. Most of whom I gave little to no testimony of Y'shua other than to claim to be a follower of his. I felt it wrong of me as though I were too fearful to speak up. And dare I say it? I was afraid I was even ashamed of the Gospel... or intimidated until I began studying the Gospel in the Tanakh.

I share in your shame.:o You are not the only one.

People, take example, do not fall in this trap. Talking from my own experience mostly.

sojeru · Jan 27, 2004

I say, push the Jews to be more Torah observant and nothing else- for this is the gospel that was preached at Sinai (via the book of Hebrews)

shalom u'bracha

sojeru · Jan 27, 2004

the words of Rav Shaul were directed toward Gentiles and not observant Jews.
So indeed, these need to believe through Jesus to be brought into the path...the others who are righteous do not need so

yod · Jan 27, 2004

That is a heretical teaching sojeru.

Are you messianic?

If so, what makes you that way?

Hix · Jan 27, 2004

What I think he is saying is that those who are righteous and follow Torah do not need Messiah to be saved. That is the Jewish people, Messiah came to heal the sick. The Jewish people are saved through their eternal covenant with HaShem so it is best to try and increase their observance rather than confuse with Messiah.

I agree with him.
Shalom and G-d bless
~Hix~

Hix · Jan 27, 2004

From the whole of the Tanach, through their eternal covenant, if the Jews follow the Torah they will get their place in the world to come. Through the Torah and the Mitzvot the Jews can connect with HaShem and enjoy a relationship with him. Yeshua came to heal the sick and those who want to be brought in for a relationship with HaShem also

BenTsion · Jan 27, 2004

From the whole of the Tanach, through their eternal covenant, if the Jews follow the Torah they will get their place in the world to come. Through the Torah and the Mitzvot the Jews can connect with HaShem and enjoy a relationship with him. Yeshua came to heal the sick and those who want to be brought in for a relationship with HaShem also

I once heard a (non-Messianic) rabbi say that there's a Jewish tradition which says Mashiach would come when one Jew was able to keep the Torah for at least 24 hours. I don't know whether such tradition is true, but it serves well to put things into perspective. No Jew is actually able to perfectly follow the Torah. That's why all of us, Jews or Gentiles, need Mashiach to restore our relationship with HaShem.

Hix · Jan 27, 2004

And thats why HaShem gave the Jews Teshuva, tis a wonderfull thing, no? Besides that it IS possible to keep the Torah, HaShem says that his laws are not too much for us or too far away from us that we should ask someone go to heaven and bring them down. They are within our grasp the Torah says.

I respect your idea on this, but I do believe as Yeshua said he came to heal the sick, he came to help those unrighteous who did not have an eternal covenant with HaShem as the Jews do. That is what I believe anyway

*yawns* well Im off, lyla tov everyone
Shalom and G-d bless
~Hix~

simchat_torah · Jan 27, 2004

Liela tov Hix!

Henaynei · Jan 27, 2004

Markus 2: 15 Now it happened, as He was dining in Levi's house, that many tax collectors and sinners also sat together with Jesus and His disciples; for there were many, and they followed Him. 16 And when the scribes and Pharisees saw Him eating with the tax collectors and sinners, they said to His disciples, "How is it that He eats and drinks with tax collectors and sinners?" 17 When Jesus heard it, He said to them, "Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick. I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners, to repentance."

We clearly know who the "sick" and "sinners" were - those whom Yeshua was dining - those who had fallen away from Torah observance. Who are the "well" and the "righteous?"

yod · Jan 27, 2004

"You have gone too far! The whole community is holy, every one of them, and the LORD is with them

does this passage from the Torah ring a bell???

JewishHeart · Jan 28, 2004

WOW,

Sounds like two-covenant theology is spreading around. I am not ashamed of the gospel for it is the power of God for all who believe, TO THE JEW FIRST and then to the Greek. There is no other name under heaven by which men must be saved !!!! Two-covenant theology ( one for the Jews, one for the Gentiles) is clearly rebuked by Shaul HaShaliach throughout the whole New Covenant.

THis is scary to me, lest we forget that the goal is Messiah and not the Torah ! If the Jewish people were saved by Torah, then the flogging of Paul and Peter for preaching in the synagogues was in vain ! I love orthodox people and only hope the best for them in the world to come ! I give my life to see them accept Yeshua because I love them. God is a merciful God and He could find mercy because Torah points to Messiah, but we should not base theology on it and stop preaching the gospel to the Jew first ! Besides that, many Jewish people spit on the name of "Yeshu." I believe there is mercy and grace for them because of historical hard-feelings, but they are not ignorant ! They rejected the Messiah, its black and white in the New Covenant... accept it. They rejected the Messiah BEFORE the pogroms, Holocaust, etc. There were a myriad who did accept the Messiah ( Acts 21) and one day all Israel will be saved. There is only ONE NAME by which man can be saved !!!

Hix · Jan 28, 2004

Yeshua himself says he came to save sinners and those lost, not the righteous who are already in a covenant with G-d. G-d says no less than 30 times in the Tanach his covenant made at Sinai is eternal, and if the Jewish people follow it they will be righteous and he will be their G-d and they will have their place in the world to come. It is for this reason that Yeshua came for those outside the marriage covenant.

Also its important to note that Shaul ADMITS that the Jews will NOT accept Yeshua untill the end times (in which Yeshua will fulfill the prophesis and they will admit he is/was the messiah) it is unreasonable to think that HaShem would make it so the Jews cannot accept Yeshua yet, and not save his covenant people. Why? Becuase Yeshuas primary purpose was to heal the sick, to teach the Torah to those Jews who needed to be taught Torah, and to bring a way through which gentiles might come to HaShem also.

So the bottom line is this. HaShem has an eternal covenant with the Jewish people, those that keep the Torah have a lasting relationship with him. That is why the Pharisees were so shocked that Yeshua would eat and comune with the thieves and with the liers and with those who kept the Torah not. His reason for this is that he came to heal the sick, not the well.

Deuteronomy 30:1 - And it shall come to pass, when all these things have come upon you, the blessing and the curse, which I have set before you, and you shall call them to mind among all the nations, where the L-rd your G-d has driven you, And shall return to the L-rd your G-d, and shall obey his voice according to all that I command you this day, you and your children, with all your heart, and with all your soul; That then the L-rd your G-d will turn your captivity, and have compassion upon you, and will return and gather you from all the nations, where the Lord your G-d has scattered you.

Shalom and G-d bless
~Hix~

yod · Jan 28, 2004

yod said:
does this passage from the Torah ring a bell???

Quote:

"You have gone too far! The whole community is holy, every one of them, and the LORD is with them

Henaynei · Jan 28, 2004

yod said:
Quote:

"You have gone too far! The whole community is holy, every one of them, and the LORD is with them

Reference plz?!?

yod · Jan 28, 2004

Numbers 16:3

This is what Korah said just before the earth swallowed him.

sojeru · Jan 28, 2004

we do not say that the entire community is holy- for amoung us still exist those that do not observe and those that are conversos and have lost the path of their patriarchs Abraham,Isaac and Jacob...
These would rather practice less than Noah who is one of he least righteous people compared to all of the righteous ones that G-D had deemed righteous.

If a person is any less righteous than Avinu Noach, then he has no hope in this world.

Messiah came for the sick- so we are to bring Gentiles into the House of G-D, and gentiles that are in the house of G-D are trained to keep the children of the House safe.

when a child is blind- it is to be kept safe and lead by the gentile back to his place in the house.
when a lamb strays off the sheep dog makes sure to bring it back into the fold of the SHEEP not the dogs (which would include wolves and wolves like to eat sheep).

So in the same way that Gentile of the house will not let the sheep become one of them, a dog, (because it just cant) or dwell with the wild dogs.

the problem with Korah was that he didnt know the difference between what was sick and what was not- he saw all as healthy....and he was also one of the ones that was being infected- and there are many Jews like that now, like Korah, but is it the entire observing community? i doubt it

yod · Jan 28, 2004

Korah's sin was rebellion against the authority of the One whom G-d had sent to lead them to their salvation. There is no mention of Korah breaking Torah (rhymes!) or being a bad guy in any other way.

Wouldn't want to be in his shoes!

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