Quicunque Vult and works??

JVAC · Dec 27, 2003

Here is a problem I have been having with the athanasian creed, I love it dearly, but towards the end it says, those that do good, will enter eternal life, and those that do bad will be condemned. I was wondering if someone out there, more knowledgeable than I about the subject, could explain this.

Seeing that the Lutheran, Presbyterian and Anglican Churches, and since 1999 Roman Church, teach Justification by Faith; yet we still accept this creed fully, am I missing something?

Whoever wants to be saved should above all cling to the catholic faith.

Whoever does not guard it whole and inviolable will doubtless perish eternally.

Now this is the catholic faith: We worship one God in trinity and the Trinity in unity, neither confusing the persons nor dividing the divine being.

For the Father is one person, the Son is another, and the Spirit is still another.

But the deity of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit is one, equal in glory, coeternal in majesty.

What the Father is, the Son is, and so is the Holy Spirit.

Uncreated is the Father; uncreated is the Son; uncreated is the Spirit.

The Father is infinite; the Son is infinite; the Holy Spirit is infinite.

Eternal is the Father; eternal is the Son; eternal is the Spirit:

And yet there are not three eternal beings, but one who is eternal;

as there are not three uncreated and unlimited beings, but one who is uncreated and unlimited.

Almighty is the Father; almighty is the Son; almighty is the Spirit:

And yet there are not three almighty beings, but one who is almighty.

Thus the Father is God; the Son is God; the Holy Spirit is God:

And yet there are not three gods, but one God.

Thus the Father is Lord; the Son is Lord; the Holy Spirit is Lord:

And yet there are not three lords, but one Lord.

As Christian truth compels us to acknowledge each distinct person as God and Lord, so catholic religion forbids us to say that there are three gods or lords.

The Father was neither made nor created nor begotten;

the Son was neither made nor created, but was alone begotten of the Father;

the Spirit was neither made nor created, but is proceeding from the Father and the Son.

Thus there is one Father, not three fathers; one Son, not three sons; one Holy Spirit, not three spirits.

And in this Trinity, no one is before or after, greater or less than the other;

but all three persons are in themselves, coeternal and coequal; and so we must worship the Trinity in unity and the one God in three persons.

Whoever wants to be saved should think thus about the Trinity.

It is necessary for eternal salvation that one also faithfully believe that our Lord Jesus Christ became flesh.

For this is the true faith that we believe and confess: That our Lord Jesus Christ, God's Son, is both God and man.

He is God, begotten before all worlds from the being of the Father, and he is man, born in the world from the being of his mother --

existing fully as God, and fully as man with a rational soul and a human body;

equal to the Father in divinity, subordinate to the Father in humanity.

Although he is God and man, he is not divided, but is one Christ.

He is united because God has taken humanity into himself; he does not transform deity into humanity.

He is completely one in the unity of his person, without confusing his natures.

For as the rational soul and body are one person, so the one Christ is God and man.

He suffered death for our salvation.

He descended into hell and rose again from the dead.

He ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father.

He will come again to judge the living and the dead.

At his coming all people shall rise bodily to give an account of theirown deeds.

Those who have done good will enter eternal life,

those who have done evil will enter eternal fire.

This is the catholic faith.

One cannot be saved without believing this firmly and faithfully.

thereselittleflower · Dec 27, 2003

Hi JVAC

I think that a correction I would make is that the Catholic Church does not teach Justification by faith, but by Grace (through faith) and has always taught that .. and I understand that Protestantism also teaches jutification by Grace (through faith) . . not to debate, but to clarify . .

I think it would be very good to post this in OBOB as well . .

Catholics teach Justification by Grace . . but they teach that Justification is not the same as salvation - it is a step towards salvation. So Catholics understand that works, done in Grace, not in our own power, also play a role in our ultimate salvation, as faith does . .

Protestants have a different way of describing this, and it differs between groups within Protestantism, but esentially, these 'works' will be the natural outcome of one's justification/salvation and thus proof of it, and some call it the fruit of their salation . . so one cannot say they are saved and live their life any way they see fit or live in sin . . one has to do good, or they do evil instead, they prove that they are not saved regardless of what they claim . . Those Protestants who embrace a doctrine of Conditional Security see it more like the Catholics view this issue . .

So these various groups can adhere to this creed in theory, and see the role that "works' play slightly differently . . I think as Protestants and Catholics better understand how the other group views the role of "works" in the practice and living out of our faith, I think there is less and less of a gulf in understanding between the 2 groups . . .

Peace in Him!

theseed · Dec 27, 2003

For those that accept other writings as cannonical (besides the bible) will need to reconcile the two. I'm a non-lutheran protestant and don't accept writings but the bible to be cannonical. (Bible is a cannon, the Koran is another). In the book, of Jame, he explains that works and faith come together, as if they are two sides of the same coin. I expect someone who professes to be a believer in Christ to show it in their life. Since I only accept the bible, I don't believe in justification by works.

We continually remember before our God and Father your work produced by faith, your labor prompted by love, and your endurance inspired by hope in our Lord Jesus Christ.
1 Thess. 1.3

"nor to devote themselves to myths and endless genealogies. These promote controversies rather than God's workwhich is by faith." 1 Timothy 1.4

You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. James 2.22

I submitted a post under the Nicene Creed thread that list scriptures under each tenet. Its worth checking out.

theseed · Dec 27, 2003

thereselittlerflower said:
I think that a correction I would make is that the Catholic Church does not teach Justification by faith, but by Grace (through faith) and has always taught that .. and I understand that Protestantism also teaches jutification by Grace (through faith) . . not to debate, but to clarify . .

I did not know this, not exactly. I don't want to debate, but its my understanding that Roman Catholics believe that salvation can come through obediance to the Pope, who is Viscar Christ. Or that Chrissening (spell?) and good works can bring salvation. I met a catholic once who put is faith in being baptized. Does the Roman Catholic church promote "by grace, through faith" in the Pope, who is Viscar Christ?

Axion · Dec 27, 2003

theseed said:
I did not know this, not exactly. I don't want to debate, but its my understanding that Roman Catholics believe that salvation can come through obediance to the Pope, who is Viscar Christ. Or that Chrissening (spell?) and good works can bring salvation. I met a catholic once who put is faith in being baptized. Does the Roman Catholic church promote "by grace, through faith" in the Pope, who is Viscar Christ?

Catholics and other Apostolic Christians believe that Baptism is the sacrament which imparts the graces of justification. This makes one a part of God's family, and washes away all previous sin. One remains a part of God's family unless one is separated thereafter by unforgiven mortal sin. Salvation is therefore seen as a continuous process. Not a one-off event. Salvation requires Faith in God (not the Pope), expressed through active obedience to God's will. God's grace is vital to this process, and empowers us to do what is pleasing to Him. Grace can come to us in different ways, including the other sacraments of the Church.

JVAC · Dec 27, 2003

Thanks for correcting me on the Grace/Faith thing, I did mean to say Grace, oh well. (I put the 1999 thing because that is when the 'Doctrine of Justification' was accepted between the Lutheran and Catholic church.)

I do understand works to come from our faith, but then why doesn't the creed say the faithful shall have eternal life, and the unfaithful eternal fire?? I do realize that it could be from revelations where it says something about accounting for our actions, yet does that take away from grace?

thereselittleflower · Dec 27, 2003

JVAC said:
Thanks for correcting me on the Grace/Faith thing, I did mean to say Grace, oh well. (I put the 1999 thing because that is when the 'Doctrine of Justification' was accepted between the Lutheran and Catholic church.)

I wondered if you meant that

I do understand works to come from our faith, but then why doesn't the creed say the faithful shall have eternal life, and the unfaithful eternal fire?? I do realize that it could be from revelations where it says something about accounting for our actions, yet does that take away from grace?

I guess the best way to describe it is as theseed has done . .faith and works are 2 sides of the same coin .. you are not saved by one side only (whether it be faith alone or works alone) but both are integral to, and parts of, the process. So, why the creed states it the way it does, I can only assume (without studying it more in depth) that it is because faith (one side of the coin) is dealt with at the end of the creed,

One cannot be saved without believing this firmly and faithfully.

meaning all that is in the creed

And in the potion you asked about, it is dealing with the other side of the coin - works

And no, it does not take away from Grace in any way, as both faith and works in this context are results of God's Grace and are accomplished in and by His Grace . . the works spoken of are not human works apart from God's Grace .. .

Both faith and works are the hearts responses to God's Grace and in God's Grace and release more of God's Grace into our lives which we respond to through faith and good works, etc . . and thus the upward spiral continues until we choose to stop responding to God's Grace . .

does that help?

Peace in Him!

theseed · Dec 28, 2003

JVAC said:
Here is a problem I have been having with the athanasian creed, I love it dearly, but towards the end it says, those that do good, will enter eternal life, and those that do bad will be condemned. I was wondering if someone out there, more knowledgeable than I about the subject, could explain this.

Seeing that the Lutheran, Presbyterian and Anglican Churches, and since 1999 Roman Church, teach Justification by Faith; yet we still accept this creed fully, am I missing something?

[/left]

I would also like to add that, according the Apostle Paul, believers are God's worhmanship, that is to say he works to recreate us into a new person, doing good works.

"therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come!" 2 Corinthians 5.17

"8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God-- 9not by works, so that no one can boast". Ephesians 2.8-9

Quicunque Vult and works??

JVAC

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thereselittleflower

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theseed

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Axion

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JVAC

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thereselittleflower

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theseed

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