Questions of conversion from Catholic to Orthodox

insearchof2 said:

Can some of you wonderful Orthodox christians please recommend some books, some words of advise, some differances as well as similarities of catholics and Orthodox christians?

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What type of books are you looking for exactly?

insearchof2 said:

Can some of you wonderful Orthodox christians please recommend some books,

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IMNSHO, the best book for a Westerner trying to understand Orthodoxy is The Orthodox Way by Bishop Kallistos (Timothy) Ware.

some differances as well as similarities of catholics and Orthodox christians?

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If no one else has answered by tomorrow, I will.

If you are looking for a book at an introductory level, and easy to understand, one of the best books available is Timothy (KALLISTOS) Ware's 'The Orthodox Church'.

Books cost money. Get your facts off a website - it's much cheaper.

Hi there, welcome to TAW!!

We do have a few converts here from the RCC, I'll leave most of the answering up to them as my knowledge in that area is limited. I do have some books to recommend though:

The Truth - What Every Roman Catholic Should know about the Orthodox Church, by Clark Carlton

and

Two Paths, by Michael Whelton.

I hope you find what you're looking for. There is also some Orthodoxy 101 type stuff at my web page at http://stienekel.tripod.com/

insearchof2 said:

Can some of you wonderful Orthodox christians please recommend some books, some words of advise, some differances as well as similarities of catholics and Orthodox christians?

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The "Our Faith" section of the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America is pretty comprehensive:

http://www.goarch.org/en/ourfaith/

There are both "theoretical" and "practical" differences between Orthodox Christians and Catholics. A "theoretical" difference is that we don't believe in the existence of purgatory, but we do pray for the departed. A "practical" difference is that we all take Holy Communion with a spoon from a common chalice. You will discover differences of both kinds as you explore Orthodoxy.

Facing East by Fredrica Matthews Green is a good book about the experience of conversion, however, I do think they converted from protestantism. My conversion story from Catholicism to Orthodoxy is 1/2 done, you can read the first half under the conversion story thread. The second half is being slowly written.

As for the differences between Rome and Orthodoxy, there are a few very glaring differences, and then there are a whole bunch of little attitudinal differences which are much more concrete. Some of the major differences are:

1) We do not recognize the ideas of:
a) Papal Primacy of Jurisdiction
b) Papal Infallibility
c) That the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son
d) That all men are guilty of the sin of Adam in the same way that Adam is guilty
of his sin
e) That Mary was born immaculately free of sin (The Immaculate Conception)
f) We do not believe that it is necessary to describe the mystery of the Eucharist
using the term "Transubstantiation"
g) We have always believed that the Divine Liturgy should be prayed in the
language of the people (the vernacular), whereas Rome for over 500 years
insisted on the universal use of the Latin language, even after the majority
of people had stopped speaking latin
h) We do not see sin as being Mortal/Venial
i) We do not accept the ideas of Purgatory or Limbo
j) We do not accept the ideas of Mary being Co-Redemptrix or Mediatrix of All
Graces
k) We reject the idea of Indulgences

2) Bishops do not have the authority to make binding decisions of faith for Orthodox
Christians in jurisdictions outside of their own, except when done in an
ecumenical council, and all bishops are equals. A Primate (Metropolitan/Patriarach)
has no authority over any of his brother bishops except for the right to take the
seat of honor at a council. This being said, Patriarchs can not simply issue
declarations of matters of faith the way the Pope does. Declarations of faith
may only de done by means of a council.

3) We reject the Scholastic attempt to explain all matters of faith which was
employed by the likes of Thomas Aquinas. To the Orthodox, Sacraments are a
mystery. Attempts at explaining away what happens during a sacrament are
therefor not made.

4) We Orthodox place a much heavier emphasis on the teachings and writings of the
Apostolic and Church fathers and the 7 Ecumenical Councils than do the Roman
Catholics.


These are some of the more qlaring differences between Rome and Orthodoxy

Michael, could you explain a little about what exactly Indulgences are?

Indugances are things done to lessen your stay in purgatory. things like saying your rosary or making a pilgrimage to Jerusalem.

insearchof2 said:

What is Papal pimacy of jurisdiction?

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The belief that the Pope is has authority over the entire Church.

Papal infallibility,

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The belief that the Pope, when speaking from the Chair of St Peter, is incapable of error.

transubstantiation?

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The Catholic explanation of how Christ becomes present in the Eucharist.

insearchof2 said:

Thank you,
Now I have even more questions. I must say I am actually just coming back into the church again after a few years away. I am a little rusty. What is Papal pimacy of jurisdiction? Papal infallibility, and transubstantiation?

Also,
Do you write icons? I have been taking classes with an Iconographer from Russia every few years. I have compleated about three. I do believe they are pulling me in. The more I write icons the more I want to be involved with the Orthodox church.

Linda

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Yes Linda, I do write Icons. I was Roman Catholic when I began writing them and they did just that, they pulled me (although kicking and screaming) into Orthodoxy. That part of my conversion will be discussed in Part II of my conversion story. However, you can get a glimpse of it by checking out my web page at http://www.comeandseeicons.com/goltz.htm Which iconographer have you been taking classes from? God often uses tools like that to bring us to the truth.

The Roman Catholic Church differs from the Orthodox Church almost exclusively in tradition-- The only major theological difference i would say is with repect to purgatory. Other minor differences are, as stated earlier, regarding whether or not St Mary was born with original sin and such. Most other "differences" stem from political issues made into theological ones, or purposeful misinterpretations, or even just ignorance. It should be noted that The EO separation from the RCC was political but disguised as being on acccount of TWO WORDS(!!!) added to the creed , and the use of icons-- even this I find to be a terrible reason for a schism, a poor excuse. Hence (with the exception of those noted above) EO to RCC differences are tradition.

Which brings into question Eastern Rite Catholics-- They have the same traditions as their respective Orthodox churches. So with Eastern Rite Catholics the difference is basically the existance of purgatory; this is why one sees so many Eastern-rite catholics attending orthodox churches especially when they imigrate (My Dad b eing an example/ he baptised me Orthodox).

The RCC in America has some very badhabits, such as incense being "optional", only Christ's body being given to the people and stuff like that, as well as some very protestant traditions. vatican 2 really did bad things to the church, the latin mass is as competeant and good a mass as any orthodox one, but the new-mass is really very protestant. This doesn't mean That I don't believe that the Catholic Church in America isn't saving souls, I believe it is but that they shoulod drop Vatican 2 and return to the traditions that the orthodox Church has maintained.

Catholic and orthodox both have apostolic ordinations so we are, together, the fullness of christ with no other churches. Orthodox Catholic or Assyrian (and that is where it ends PERIOD at its outer boundaries.......except maybe for a few high church anglicans ) You are of Christ's One Holy Catholic and Apostolic CHurch. From there it is a matter only of (purgatory) and TRADITION (which I believe the ORthododx do a better job of maintaining).

Hope This Helps,
DJ Hurricane

PS; examples of madeup/fake/misuderstanding related "differences"

1. Transubstantiation: We beleive the exact same thing. Our definition is identical to that of the Catholic church, it is just that some orthodox reject the term "transubstantiation" as the term for it, although many do. Again terminology is making a problem, our understanding of the process and real presence are IDENTICAL.

2. Supremacy of the Pope: of course we don't believe that the ArchBishop Of Rome is theologically infallible--We aren't ROman! We do however believe that our respective ArchBishops (along with the synod) are the final say and authority in the church. This is the same with the catholics but with respect to the archbishop of rome "the pope" just as we see our patriarchs to have the ultimate theology.

3.The list goes on!

I love the icons from Come and See. I have the "Christ Blessing the Children" icon and it is just about my favorite icon.

DjHurricane said:

It should be noted that The EO separation from the RCC was political but disguised as being on acccount of TWO WORDS(!!!) added to the creed

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Those two words changed the meaning of the creed, and how they were added to the creed was just as scandalous. The list which I cited is more than just tradition. There are major subtle differences between Rome and Orthodoxy.

1. Transubstantiation: We beleive the exact same thing. Our definition is identical to that of the Catholic church, it is just that some orthodox reject the term "transubstantiation" as the term for it, although many do. Again terminology is making a problem, our understanding of the process and real presence are IDENTICAL.

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That is not what I am being taught as a catechumen. AFAIK, Orthodox dogma does not attempt to explain how the bread and wine become the body and blood of Christ; it is called a mystery. Transubstantiation is based on an Aristotelian and medieval Scholastic world-view that is foreign to Orthodoxy. It is most likely not forbidden to think in terms of transubstantiation if we find it helpful, but it is not correct to say that it is what the Church teaches.

You are correct, countrymouse.

DjHurricane said:

The Roman Catholic Church differs from the Orthodox Church almost exclusively in tradition--

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...which is everything. The very heart of who we are.

The only major theological difference i would say is with repect to purgatory.

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One of many.

Other minor differences are, as stated earlier, regarding whether or not St Mary was born with original sin and such.

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This is a tree which opens up into a wide forest of issues. The teaching on original sin affects everything of who we are, esp. in respect to our salvation. Nothing about "original sin" is a minor difference.

The EO separation from the RCC was political but disguised as being on acccount of TWO WORDS(!!!) added to the creed

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Sure there were some politics. But that wasn't all - Rome had been estranging further and further for centuries - this was just the straw that broke the camel's back. And for the record, those two words (one actually) turned the theology of the creed and the Godhead on its ear. It affects our Christology to change it. The Holy Fathers had it the way they did for a reason. (plus even the Bible says it - John 15:26, I believe)

and the use of icons-- even this I find to be a terrible reason for a schism, a poor excuse.

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I don't know anything about this leading to schism. But if it did, it was important, because icons are incredibly important to our theology, leading into the same road as the theology of the Incarnation. They are not optional.

The RCC in America has some very badhabits, such as incense being "optional", only Christ's body being given to the people and stuff like that, as well as some very protestant traditions.

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Indeed.

vatican 2 really did bad things to the church...the new-mass is really very protestant.

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Right.

Catholic and orthodox both have apostolic ordinations so we are, together, the fullness of christ with no other churches. Orthodox Catholic or Assyrian (and that is where it ends PERIOD at its outer boundaries.......except maybe for a few high church anglicans

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To quote St. Paul, "Is Christ divided?"

DJ, I appreciate what you're trying to do. But minimizing differences does nobody any favor. I firmly uphold the teaching that "We only know where the Church is - we don't know where She isn't". So I dare not to say who are the sheep or goats, nor do I judge our brothers and sisters of other Christian faiths. Indeed, there are many more pious than I. But to say we are one with them is simply untrue. We become one in Christ by partaking of His precious Body and Blood together. And those of other faiths do not share in that. God willing, maybe some day schisms will be healed, heresies will be renounced, and those in error might come back to the ancient faith, the faith of the apostles, the holy Eastern Orthodox Church. But I see no use in pretending there are no differences where indeed there are.

In Christ,

Katherine

Katherine and all,

I agree very much with you on the concept presented in the last paragrpah but not you application of them all. I am not minimising differences-- their really are virtual none between orthodox and catholics--I believe that the orthodox (in particular the Greek and Coptic monks) like to hit the catholic church hard and blow things way out of proportion; hence i believe that I state the differences as they are (very very minor) and a majority of orthodox people and clergy like to blow them out of proportion. As I said Catholics and Orthodox are the one only holy christ apostolic church-- I do not believe in any "ecumenical" garbage with other non-ORthodox/Catholic Churches. So we agree that the whole minimising differences thing and ecumenism is total garbage, but where we differ is where the RCC is in that context. I believe the RCC to be the same as the orthodox, and so i am not just generalizing differences becasue they are the same church as far as i am concerned.

As i have said, I agree with you totally that we shouldnt minimise differences with other "christian" churches. I believe that Protestantism has fallen into such gravee error that their will never be a point of reconciliation-- our differences are so great that (with the exception of anglicans) i would say they are of a different religon than us (and by us i mean orthodox and catholic). Dialogue these these churches, who upon anyone getting a new idea they just go off and start their own even more distoorted sect, is totally pointless and just about the only thing we hold in common with them is that we share SOME books of the bible in common and pray to a man called "jesus". most don't even get the concept of the trinity!!! they don't have the same sacraments as us!!so, you are right, dialogue with churches other than ours (ir orthodox or catholic) is pointless becasue they are already waaay to far down the wrong road.

Your Servant In Christ,
DJ Hurricane

p.s i also agree that christ's church can't be divided which means that we must really fully reunite the Oriental orthodox, Eastern orthodox and now Greek Orthodox (result of another, but this time overtly, political split, thank god people in this day and age aren't jumping on the schism bandwagon) and Catholics. Having Christ's one only holy catholic and apostolic church divided like this has to stop