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Q1) Since God decreed in eternity past those that would be saved and those that would not, then all who are the elect will be saved. If this is true, then why should I (not knowing whether I am of the elect or not) even care? If I am, he will save me. If I am not, then it really doesnt matter anyway for there is, nor has there ever been, any hope for me. Am I not, fated for evil?
A1) If God decreed in eternity past those individually that would be saved, and therefore by default, that all the rest would not, then all the preselected individuals will be saved. But if the foregoing premise does not reflect reality, then the observation is pointless. If the false premise were true, then it logically follows that we need not care, nothing we can do will alter our final destination. If the premise were true, then everyone not chosen for mercy would be fated for perfect justice in the afterlife.
this is sooooo flawed....
God did not know who would and who wouldn't....that is what this age is for.....to find out.
He did however know who the elect were, because they stood for Him in that age when Satan rebelled and 1/3 followed him...
that is why the elect were chosen for their particular role in this age. Thy are good to go, so God can use them to further His plan of Salvation for the rest.
Q2) If all things are decreed by God to happen, then how is any man responsible for his actions? It seems to me that if predestination is true then none of us are actually responsible for our actions because we don't choose who we are and can only experience existence, rather than control it or even influence it. It is the existence we continually experience that dictates who we are and how we act. In this sense, I am simply a robot - I do what I was programmed to do. How can God fault me for doing what he decreed in eternity past that I would do?
only the elect were predestined....the rest are not...
A2) If all things are decreed by God to happen, exhaustive determinism, then our life choices are an illusion, and it would not be logical to punish us for doing what we are compelled to do with no alternate possibility. However if God has created a purview within which we can make autonomous decisions, except that God sometimes invades that purview and influences some limited specific outcomes, then to the extent we make our choices, we can be logically held accountable for those choices.
Q3) By virtue of the assumption that all things happen because they are predetermined to do so, does not my sin actually become the will of God? Because of predestination, is not everything I do actually the decretive will of God - whether good or bad?
you don't really believe that God WANTS you to sin, do you?
Q4) Does God totally impose His will on man? That is, are there things that God wants, such as that all men would be saved, but which He does not force to happen? If God does not desire the salvation of all men and if God does not love all men, then what hope is there for me? Do I hope against hope that somehow, someday God might decide to grant me faith?
all men have free will to choose Him...except the elect, who already have...they are good to go....even Satan had free will and chose to rebell.
A4) No, God does not totally impose His decretive will on man, because the outcome of our individual lives is not totally foreordained. The concept that God desires all men to be saved is inconsistent with exhaustive determinism. However, if God desires all men to be saved according to His purpose and plan which provides those that hear the gospel an opportunity to trust in Christ then giving His Son as a propitiation for all reflects Gods love for the world fallen mankind in general. Certainly no one comes to Christ unless granted by the Father, so we should hope that we are not among those limited few that scripture describes were precluded like Pharaoh, Judas and the unbelieving Jews, to facilitate Gods redemptive plan.
all will be given a fair chance, including Jews...and Judas, God will determine his fate, not you or I...it is unfair to judge him...he repented and was murdered.
God puts the soul into their position in life...it is not random...He knows what will most benefit us...
Q5) I have been told that the reason I do not come to Christ is not that I cannot, but that I will not. However, if God wants me to come to Him, I will. If God wants me to want to come to Him, I would want such things. I could not want, or come without His direct action in my life.
gotta ask....seek, search....He will find us when we are HONESTLY ready...at our breaking point when we realize that we cannot make it with out Him...after all, without Him, we are just dust....and succeptable to the woes of the world...
with Him, we are strengthened in many, many ways.
And God, being omnipotent, if He wanted me to come, or to want to come, cannot be gainsaid. So its clear to me that the reason I do not want to come is because God does not want me to.
God wants all to come as He declares in the Bible...
God cannot make someone love Him...or better said, He will NOT make any one love Him....that love has to be real, genuine and from oneself...He just doesn't want robots...
A5) Yes the statement is true, see John 5:40, but it does not reflect what Calvinism teaches. Their view is the lost will not because they are unable, being unregenerate and suffering from the total inability to trust in Christ. Yes, if the Reformed view were true, and it is not, then it would be clear that if you never during your life want to come to Jesus, the reason is God has foreordained that you will not come to Jesus. However, it this view is mistaken, then if you are not so blinded by a love of darkness that you cannot understand the gospel, you do indeed still have a slight opportunity to trust in Christ. But it is slight, because if you have been enlightened (you have heard and understood the gospel) but have rejected Christ, unless something happens to alter your core character, it is impossible to bring you to repentance again.
both of these answers are incorrect...completely...
Q6) The man, who is faced with two paths, picks one, and the man, faced with only one path and one impassable path, goes down the only one he can. In the first, free will is actually being used. I have a choice between two paths, and I pick one. In the second, I have no free will. The blocked, impassable path might as well have not existed for me. Why would God give me a choice if I cannot choose?
That would be redundant...so it is totally incorrect...
He just would not.
A6) He would not! God sets before us a choice and exhorts us to choose life. Reformed thinking says this is not true, that we do not make decisions, or that we are unable to make some decisions (yes, reformed theology is logically inconsistent) but scripture is crystal. What must you do to be saved? Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ. What does God do with our faith? See Romans 4:5 and 4:24. He accepts our faith, with no mention of the faith being supernaturally given to us, and reckons or credits it as righteousness. Jesus says the work or action God requires of us is to believe in the One God sent, the Messiah, the Christ, the Anointed One, the Lamb of God, and the King of Kings.
Thanks Zeke37, my position is a one point Calvinist, once saved aways saved, 2 point Arminian, God's election unto salvation is conditioned upon His acceptance of our faith in Christ, and mankind in general has the ability and capability to respond adequately to the gospel such that God credits the faith as righteousness. I believe the doctrines of Total Spiritual inability, Unconditional Election, Limited Atonement as defined by Calvinism, and Irresistible Grace as false doctrines. But I differ from the Arminian view in that I believe (1) in our fallen state we can understand and respond to the milk of the gospel, (2) that our election unto salvation occurs during our physical lives and not before, and (3) OSAS.
It would have to be an extreme circumstance, if it is possible, not something that could be easily done, as some here suggest. I don't buy into the "in-out-in-out" school of thought, where you technically could lose your salvation and gain it back several times a day, based on your actions at any given moment. That is not logical either.
The classic example of the 40 year Christian who sins just before getting run over by a bus, so that he doesn't consciously repent of that last sin before death, and winds up losing 40 years of good Christian living, and eternity, applies here. Some would say that "too bad, he blew it" while I say that he is covered by the Blood in such a situation, and goes to be with the Lord.
I wasn't implying that you did believe my example. I was giving qualified agreement to what you said previously.
I do not suggest such a thing. Scripture talks about us withering away, not jumping back and forth. At some point we just do not care about our birth right, it has little value, so satan buys it from us for pocket change. The reason we are asked to do good stuff is not directly related to our salvation, but to cement our relationship so we will not slowly fall away. We are told we can grow rapidly and that is what we want to do, but not growing will result in slow withering and then we start doing really bad stuff.
It would have to be an extreme circumstance, if it is possible, not something that could be easily done, as some here suggest. I don't buy into the "in-out-in-out" school of thought, where you technically could lose your salvation and gain it back several times a day, based on your actions at any given moment. That is not logical either.
The classic example of the 40 year Christian who sins just before getting run over by a bus, so that he doesn't consciously repent of that last sin before death, and winds up losing 40 years of good Christian living, and eternity, applies here. Some would say that "too bad, he blew it" while I say that he is covered by the Blood in such a situation, and goes to be with the Lord.
Excellent! I just read it, and it is spot-on correct. Thanks for the link!Good point made by John Hendrix over at monergism.com on this very point, NBF - http://www.monergism.com/interpretivekey.html
The key issue being that folks are failing to see the centrality of Christ in regards to these things. All of the focus is being put on the ability of the person to perform or believe rather than on the accomplished work on the cross.
Van said:
Lets look at 1 Peter 1:3-5. Those in view are born again for "His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead." Next, we are born again "to an inheritance, imperishable and undefiled, and will not fade away, reserved in heaven for you." Now these same born again believers "...are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last day."
Now the word translated in the NASB as "protected" means to protect by guarding, to keep. The loss of salvation proponents argue that God keeps us in a cell with the door open, such that we can walk out. But my side argues that to keep means with the cell door locked closed, such that we are not free to walk out.
Van said:
I think everyone agrees at some point a born again believer would not be free to walk out. When we enter the eternal kingdom, do you think we can depart? So it is a question of when does God constrain our will such that we cannot depart our love of God. I say during our physical lives, when we are born again.
I see no contradiction. First, the idea of sowing does not mean you are working to bring forth a harvest of eternal life. You do not work at sinning sowing bad seed that is just part of your sinful life and you do not work at sowing good seed that is just part of being righteous. God causes the seed we sow to change into something glorious beyond our imagination eternal life. There are lots of commands given Christians about what they can and should and will be doing if we are believers. If we do not then, yes we will wither and start sowing seeds after the flesh and eventually give up our birth right.Van said:
Next, lets consider Galatians 6:9. Viewed in isolation it certainly can be read to indicate a works based salvation. This connection can be inferred by saying what is sown in verse 8 to the Spirit from which we reap eternal life, is the same as doing good in verse 9. But is it?
If we flip over to Romans 6:21-22, we see a little different view. While we were "in the flesh" before you were born again, you derived no benefit from sin, for the outcome of those things is death. But now, having been freed (born again) you derive your benefit from God, the Spirit. And one of the benefits is eternal life.
Taken together, I think the best view is two separate benefits are in view from being born again, with one being the outcome of eternal life, and the other sanctification, growing more like Christ and earning rewards for faithful service, such as supporting those who teach us in our local churches. And we will reap rewards, if we do not lose heart, and grow weary. And as an aside, I believe the rewards are those we help by planting, watering, cultivating directly or indirectly such as supporting those who teach, enter God's kingdom.
LOL! I think I'll let you think on that a while....I think you know the answer.were you refering to my answers or Van's answers?
The whole context Gal. 6: 7-9 is talking about reaping and sowing. You can not reap that which you did not sow. Gal. 6:8 will reap eternal life spells it very plainly what you will or will not reap. Gal.6 does not say doing good are the seeds, but they might be needed to keep us from giving up the inheritance. Those that sow after the Spirit will be doing good.Hi Bling, no Galatians 6:9 does not even mention sowing. It indicates we reap something from doing good works if we do not grow weary. That is why my view, based on Romans 6:21-22 is viable.
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