Questions about purgatory

thereselittleflower · Mar 9, 2009

cont. . . . .

Amazing.Grace said:
To say that we have to atone for our sins by cleansing in Purgatory, isn't that like saying the atoning sacrifice of Jesus was not sufficient?

No, for this does not cause unforgiven sins to be forgiven.

Purgatory does not save anyone.

All who go to purgatory are already saved. . .they are simply being cleaned up because they failed to do so in this life.

Purgatory is for those who are going to heaven because of their faith in Christ.

So this is all after the atoning sacrifice has had its work in their lives.

it does not replace it in any way.

It does not deal with eternal consequences of our sins. . hell. It deals with TEMPORAL consequences.. . it is good to learn our terms before questioning Catholic teaching.

1 John 2:2 says "and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world." Isn't the idea that we have to suffer for our sins after death a contradiction to everything the Bible tells us about salvation?

No, because this suffering is not about salvation. It is about purificaiton of those already saved.

Again, the bible is inerrant and the bible does not contradict itself, correct? So why does Catholic doctrine seem to contradict the bible? I'm just not seeing the harmony here and would really appreciate the insight.

Because you misunderstand BOTH Catholic doctrine and the bible.

While trying to find purgatory referenced in the Bible, I found that the primary Scriptural passage that many Catholics use in support of Purgatory is 1 Corinthians 3:15 which says, If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames. Isn't this passage and context of 1 Corinthians 3:12-15 just an illustration of things going through fire as a description of our works as believers being judged? I mean, if our works are of good quality such as gold, sliver, and costly stones, then they will pass through the fire unharmed and we will be rewarded for them. If our works are of poor quality such as wood, hay, and straw, then they will be consumed by the fire and there won't be a reward. The passage doesn't say that the believers pass through the fire, but rather that the believers works pass through the fire. Isn't that correct?

It says the believer will pass through the fire. Please read it again.

verse 15

the person will be saved, 8 but only as through fire.

the person goes through fire too.

1 Corinthians 3:15 refers to the believer escaping through the flames, not being cleansed or atoned by the flames.

So you agree, the believer goes through the flames.. .

flames bring suffering. . .

it is all there.

To use this to affirm purgatory, isn't that taking it out of context and not a depiction of purgatory?

No. To deny the obvious is to take it out of context.

I just don't see Purgatory mentioned in the bible. It sounds like this scripture refers to works as measures for reward, not as a means to salvation. I would love to find scripture to back up purgatory because it is a comforting thought if it's true. But please, if you reference any Scripture to support purgatory, please carefully read the whole chapter and study the context in which it's used. I just want to make sure it's contextual so I can understand this better.

Well, may I first recommend that you get yourself a complete bible.

Second, may I recommend that you read it in light of the faith of the apostles and early chrsitians who prayed for the dead.

If we believe in purgatory, aren't we simply misunderstanding Jesus' sacrifice?

Not at all.

Wasn't Christ's once for all sacrifice absolutely and perfectly sufficient?

To save us? Yes .. but to cleanse us of sins after we are baptized if we choose not to fully cooperate with the cleansing? No.

We must cooperate with God's grace. It is not a free ticket.

Hebrews 7:27 says "who does not need daily, like those high priests, to offer up sacrifices, first for His own sins and then for the sins of the people, because this He did once for all when He offered up Himself". How can meritorious works contribute to salvation?

They contribute to our sanctification and final salvation. . . . not the new birth except that they release more of God's grace into our lives which is His empowering towards us.

Does Jesus sacrifice have a need of additional contribution?

Paul said he was making up, in his flesh, for what was lacking in the sufferings of Christ.

Ephesians 2:8-9. says "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast." Do we need a man made up place called purgatory? Because of Jesus' sacrifice, aren't we already cleansed, declared righteous, forgiven, redeemed, reconciled, and sanctified?

initially? yes.

Subsequently? There is only one Baptism, one New Birth. It cannot be repeated. So we dirty our white robes. We confess .. we are fogiven, but that deals with the eternal consequences of our sin.. . .it does not deal with the temporal consequeces . .the effect our sin has on us and others.

These temporal consequences mean that while the eternal conseqences have been removed, and we are not in danger of hell, if we don't deal wtih the temporal effects they will follow us past the grave to a place where can no longer do anything about them and must suffer through the fire of purgatory mentioned in 1 Cor 3 for our purificaiton, for nothing impure may come before God.

I can't see that there are any works that we can do to make amends for our sins, nor can I see how we can buy forgiveness or earn it in any other way. Isn't salvation is a gift? A free gift? Aren't we saved through faith? Isn't this man made doctrine contrary to what the bible tells us?

You must understand the differnce between eternal consequences and temporal consequences of sin if you hope to understand purgatory.

Isn't the idea of Purgatory and the doctrines associated with it such as praying for the dead, indulgences, meritorious works on behalf of the dead, etc., all failing to recognize that Jesus death and resurrection was and is sufficient to pay the price for everyone of our sins?

No.

Isn't that all we need?

No.

Jesus was God incarnate as we see in John 1:1 and John 1:14 and He paid the price for our sins. Paid in full! Because He died for our sins, He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins. Isn't this true? To say that Jesus sacrifice was just for the atoning of original sin, or sins committed before salvation, isn't that an outright attack on the person and work of Jesus?

No one said that.

But neither does the Church teach once saved always saved.

We have free choice.

We can continue to respond to God's grace by growing closer and closer to Him or we can choose to walk away.

It is not the moment of being born again that determines our eternal destination, but the state we are in at the moment of death, did we die in the friendship of God?

If we say we have to pay for, atone for, or suffer because of our sins, isn't that like saying that Jesus death was not a perfect and complete sacrifice? Why would we think Jesus' death was an insufficient sacrifice? On the contrary, isn't what Jesus did for us all we need to be saved? Is seems Scripture tells us we just need to believe and be baptized.

No. the scriptures tell us much more than that!

JoabAnias · Mar 9, 2009

Amazing.Grace said:
Why isn't the cross enough to sanctify us? Why do we need purgatory, if it even exists since we haven't proven that yet, to sanctify us? Isn't what Jesus did for us enough to fully cleanse us and make us holy? It's true that nothing holy will enter the Kingdom. However, Jesus paid our debt in full when he shed His blood. Aren't we fools to assume that we aren't completely sanctified? Who are we to say something is unholy that God has made holy? If we are saved and we transgress, aren't we to die to ourself daily as Paul tells us? Nobody said in the bible that it can be done after death. But yet this is what the church teaches. Why does the church teach that which is not biblical?

Can I ask you, do you believe in the "Bible alone"?

thereselittleflower · Mar 9, 2009

cont. . . . .

cont . .. .

Amazing.Grace said:
I've read in the bible that after death is when we will be "away from the body and at home with the Lord" 2 Corinthians 5:6-8 and Philippians 1:23. It doesn't say away from the body, in Purgatory with the cleansing fire. If that was what was meant, wouldn't the bible have said that?

Where does the bible say we will be IMMEDIATELY with Jesus when we die?

It doesn't

So why are you interpreting scripture in a way that adds to what it says?

It is inerrant afterall, right? According to Scripture, after death, we are immediately in the presence of the Lord because of Christ's perfect and complete sacrifice.

]

WHERE does the scripture say anything about IMMEDIATELY going into the presence of Christ?

Why are you adding a word that is not there in scripture?

We're fully cleansed from sin and do not need anyone to pray for us nor can we do anything to earn our way to heaven from a man made concept of purgatory, isn't that correct according to scripture?

ABSOLUTELY FALSE!

Do you believe that God gives us frivolous commands?

We are commanded to pray for one another, so how can you suggest, contrary to what scripture commands, that we do not need anyone to pray for us?

We are fully cleansed from sin at Baptism . . but there is no guarantee that we will be cleansed of the temporal effects of sin subsequent to that.

After we die, it's too late, isn't it? Game over. [/qoute]

After we die, it is too late to come into the friendship of God. . . that is decided when we die.

Purgatory is not about making the unsaved saved.

It is about fully purifying those who die in the friendship of God ie are saved already . .no question about it.

We don't get a second chance. Why do we believe a man made doctrine that contradicts the bible?

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Nothing about purgator contradicts the bible. Purgatory does not give us a second chance.

That you believe that purgatory is about second chances, only demonstrates that you never understood the Catholic teaching on it to begin with.

By believing this doctrine, aren't we risking our eternity?

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No . .at least not believing what the Church teaches, which is something very different than you obviously think.

This is eternity for crying out loud! FOREVER! Without end. If these things doctrine is teaching us are true, shouldn't they be in the bible and surely they would not contradict what scripture says? I think we need to take heed and carefully study what we are taught and make sure that it is in harmony with the inerrant Word of God.

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Please be careful not to tell us what to do as Catholics.

Second, I think you need to learn what we really believe and teach instead of assuming you know, for this post makes it obvious you do not know what purgatory is.

The bible warns us not to nullify the word of God for the sake of tradition; The teachings which are rules taught by men. I don't know, but it seems to me that purgatory is one example of this.

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Absolutely not!

I'd love if someone can help me out here and prove to me otherwise. I'd hate to think what I've been taught all these years is inaccurate.

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Well, start with learning what purgatory actually is so we can discuss what it is instead of what you wrongly believe it to be.

Since I mentioned venial sin above, I wanted to ask about that also briefly. The concept of mortal and venial sin seems to be misrepresentative of how God views sin as portrayed in the bible. Scripture states that God will be just and fair in His punishment of sin and on judgement day some sin will merit greater punishment than others Matthew 11:22 24; Luke 10:12, 14. However, all sin will be punished by God. Every one of us sin Romans 3:23. Just compensation for sin is eternal death Romans 6:23. I don't see where the Bible says that some sins are worthy of eternal death and some aren't. Don't any and all sins make us worthy of eternal separation from God? I just don't see how "venial sin" is biblical, and if it's not, there is no need for "purgatory", correct?

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So why do scriptures say there is sin unto death and sin not unto death?

Sin unto death is mortal sin. Sin not unto death is venial sin.

It is in the bible.

So no, you are wrong. all sins do NOT make us worthy of eternal sepration from God. Only sins unto death do. . . ..

The bible tells us in "Revelation 18:4-5: "And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues. For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities." This verse just clings to me whenever I think of doctrine that appears to be contradictory to Scripture.

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I think you are taking this out of context and if you are calling the Catholic Church the harlot of Babylon, I think you should reconsider what you are doing in our house by doing so.

You have many unjust fears about the Catholic Church because fundamentalist protestants have gotten to you and convinced you of their way of looking christianity.

However, if you do serious research into the Early Church you will find that it is these fundamentalists that have very little in common with the ancient Church even of the apostles.

Sorry this has been so long. I just have a lot of questions and hopefully some of you can enlighten me. It is not my desire to sound preachy or to start a debate or anything like that. I'm just a confused Christian, looking for some insight. Thank you in advance for your time and answering my questions!

Have a Jesus filled day!

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Well, I hope I have given you some food for though.

Amazing.Grace · Mar 9, 2009

JoabAnias said:
Purification isn't payment of anything. There is no condemnation from purgatory. If you have arrived there, admittance to heaven is inevitable.

You cannot got to hell from purgatory any more than any impurity can enter heaven.

Mt 12:32
And whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven; ... either in this age or in the age to come.

Then how is Matthew 5:25-26 relevant to purgatory? If you say that prison in this scripture refers to purgatory, "there" would also equate to purgatory. So Jesus would have then said, surely you will not come out of there(purgatory) until you have paid up the last cent. This is how you all are viewing this, right? What do we have to pay? Why are we paying when salvation is a free gift from God? In reality, this passage has nothing to do with cleansing or purging, does it?

As far as Matthew 12:32, your little "..." seriously takes away from that passage. We all know Jesus specifically says that blasphemy of the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven in this age or the age to come.

MoNiCa4316 · Mar 9, 2009

Amazing.Grace said:
Why isn't the cross enough to sanctify us? Why do we need purgatory, if it even exists since we haven't proven that yet, to sanctify us? Isn't what Jesus did for us enough to fully cleanse us and make us holy?

I don't understand this false dichotomy.. ?
Purgatory exists because of the Cross. The cleansing there happens by grace. It's actually MORE of a work of grace there than anything here on earth, since souls in purgatory can't do anything for themselves.

It's true that nothing holy will enter the Kingdom. However, Jesus paid our debt in full when he shed His blood. Aren't we fools to assume that we aren't completely sanctified? Who are we to say something is unholy that God has made holy? If we are saved and we transgress, aren't we to die to ourself daily as Paul tells us? Nobody said in the bible that it can be done after death. But yet this is what the church teaches. Why does the church teach that which is not biblical?

we just gave you some Biblical evidence.

about sanctification - no, we are not completely sanctified! Do you still sin? If you do, you are not yet 'finished'. You will be for Heaven.

There's this verse in the Bible..Phil. 3:

Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already been made perfect, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me. 13Brothers, I do not consider myself yet to have taken hold of it. But one thing I do: Forgetting what is behind and straining toward what is ahead, 14I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus.
15All of us who are mature should take such a view of things. And if on some point you think differently, that too God will make clear to you. 16Only let us live up to what we have already attained.

no, of course we are not yet sanctified or perfect. St Paul would agree

This is the difference between Catholicism and Protestantism. Protestantism teaches that once you "accept Christ", or "get saved", you're holy because Christ is holy. The Catholic Church teaches that after we are born again through baptism, we are God's children but there is still a whole journey to becoming perfect. This whole journey happens by God's grace. But it's not instantaneous, because we don't stop sinning instantaneously. What i'm saying is that by God's grace, we become truly righteous - we become transformed into Christ's righteousness. Protestants say that we are already righteous. Maybe you've heard these terms: imputed vs infused righteousness? Most Protestants suscribe to the former, Catholics, to the latter. I think the Catholic view makes much more sense Scripturally. Because in the Bible it's clear that we are not yet perfect, but that we ARE to become perfect, someday. It happens by Christ's sacrifice. But the APPLICATION of it is different than what Protestantism teaches.

Amazing.Grace said:
Isn't this why we are directed to die to ourselves daily? Surely the bible does not tell us to continue with our wicked thoughts and bad habits on earth. That it's all good and as long as you are saved, your bad habits may continue because they are going to be cleansed once you die. Doesn't that sound ridiculous? It sure sounds ridiculous to me when the bible is specific about dying to yourself daily and it is not specific nor does it imply anything about purgatory.

we die to ourselves daily but for most of us, we die before we finish this process. We die without being fully dead to self and to the world. (the Saints are an exception). So the process must be finished somehow.. that's what Purgatory is for. Dying to self is hard and it's not a one step one day process. It's VERY hard..

Amazing.Grace said:
To imply that that this Scripture is proof of purgatory, aren't you also implying that we have to pay for salvation? You know, that free gift from God? How is the gift free, if we have to pay for it?

I've already said, that purgatory is for those who are already saved.

the "paying" in this passage talks about temporal punishment, not payment for sin.

Once a person goes to purgatory, they are destined for Heaven, they're already saved, and their sins are ALREADY forgiven. There is no guilt or separation from God as in hell.

However, the effects that sin had on their soul remains. That is what they "pay for" in Purgatory - well that is a figure of speech... really, it's a cleansing process that God does to the person. Many people think it is painful because we are sanctified and purified through suffering. Again, I'm NOT talking about sin!

For example...

let's say you sin..and then repent right afterwards. Let's say you're a Catholic and go to Confession. Your sin is forgiven, it is remembered no more. However....that action of sinning weakened your relationship with God, increased your attachment to self or the world, etc.... and THIS is what temporal punishment is for. It's to bring us "back up" spiritually. If the process is not finished on earth, the person goes to purgatory.

God bless

MoNiCa4316 · Mar 9, 2009

What do we have to pay? Why are we paying when salvation is a free gift from God? In reality, this passage has nothing to do with cleansing or purging, does it?

again, purgatory has NOTHING to do with salvation. It's for those who are already saved and they can't be un-saved. It's not for salvation or forgiveness of mortal sin at all.

MoNiCa4316 · Mar 9, 2009

We all know Jesus specifically says that blasphemy of the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven in this age or the age to come.

well I think what point we're trying to make here is that this passage shows that there is an age to come, AND that other sins could potentially be forgiven then

thereselittleflower · Mar 9, 2009

Amazing.Grace said:
Hi Rhamiel, thank you so much for taking the time to answer some of my questions. I really appreciate it. It sounds like we are in agreement on the above.

First of all, Paul makes it clear in 1 Corinthians 3:11 that Jesus Christ is the foundation, the only foundation, on which we must build. This is salvation, correct?

No . . . it means Christ is the center of all Christian beliefs, which include salvation, but are not limited to salvation.

The scriptures also tell us that the Church is built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ as the corner stone, not the foundation.

The scriptures also tell us that the Church is the Pillar and Foundation of Truth.

So, by picking and choosing one scripture and ignoring the other scriptures that more fully explain the foundation of the Christian faith and Church, what it is built upon, you end up with a distorted picture of christianity.

If you look at the New Jersualem, which is the Church, as described in Revelation, there are multiple foundations.

But underlying them all is Christ, for without Christ, there would not be anything at all.

This is all divinely revealed truth.

Jesus is Truth.

Can we reject any divinely revealed truth without in some way rejecting also Christ?

In other words, if your foundation is Jesus Christ, you will be saved. Right?

No - only if you remain in the friendship of God upon death. You have free choice.. you can choose to leave Christ at any time.

Then he goes on to tell us that we build on the foundation. So once we are saved, we still have work to do.

That's right. If we were saved and that was that, there would be no need for us to do any work to build on the foundation. . . obviously the foundation, by itself, is not enough.

What is the great commission? It's our work and what we are called to do, right? According to this scripture, our work is going to be tested. Meaning if there is no fruit to our labor, it will be meaningless and there's no reward. However, if we harvest abundantly, our reward in heaven is greater. Nonetheless, we are still saved.

That is why the purgatorial fires are ONLY for those who die in the friendship of God.

They do not save. They purify the saved.

This is my understanding of this scripture. I'm really not sure how the burning up can be equated with cleansing when the scripture is specific about it. Verse 8 tells us that we will each receive a reward according to his own labor. I just don't see how this scripture has anything to do with purgatory. My understanding is that this scripture is specifically about our works after we are saved and the reward that we will receive based on those works. If you think I am seeing this the wrong way, please explain it as you see it.

Did my previous post help?

I'm not sure what you mean by being born again unless you are referring to baptism. The Scriptures consistently say "believe and be baptized" "if you believe, then you may be baptized", etc. John 3:3-5 says 3In reply Jesus declared, "I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again." 4"How can a man be born when he is old?" Nicodemus asked. "Surely he cannot enter a second time into his mother's womb to be born!"

Yes, being born again is baptism.

5Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit. Then in verse 22 it tells us how Jesus spent time with them and baptized. So according to Scripture, Baptism is where we are born again, correct? So if that's the case, why don't we need to be born again when Jesus told us to be born again? And isn't it the blood of Jesus that cleanses our sins? When Jesus shed that blood, why would we need further cleansing?

One cannot get to purgatory unless one is born again . . so do you understand better now?

I don't know why you are picking on Bob. He really is a nice guy and never did anything wrong to anybody! Just kidding. I'm not sure what you mean by changing after we die. Have you found any examples of this in the Bible? Paul often speaks of dying to yourself daily. I understand this to mean that even though we are saved by the grace of God through the blood of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, we need to constantly ask for forgiveness. We cannot submit to earthly things that are pleasing to our flesh. We are not perfect and will most certainly fail at times. Thus we need constantly submit to the Lord and give everything up to Him, daily. So in essence, our cleansing should be daily as we die to ourselves daily.

Yes it should and if we are faithful in this, then we die a Saint, and would not spend any time in purgatory.

What happens if we are not faithful in doing so? What happens if we die without having fully submitted to this cleansing process in this life?

The majority of believers are not faithful in this, and so fail to submit to the purficiation God would give us in this life, so easily obtained compared to purgatory, for in this life we can affect things concerning us and others .. .

But if we fail to be faithful to this, then the stains of temporal effects still need to be purified. .

Logic alone dictates that there must be something after death for those who die in the friendship of God but have not fully submitted to purification in this life.

Why should we wait until we die in hopes that there is a purgatory and that we can cleanse there if there even is one?

We shouldn't. No one teaches that we should.

However, that said, there is the necessity of such a place or state as I have already described.

You acknowledge the neccessity of purification in this life. . .

Now, you need to ask yourself what happens if someone doesn't submit fully to this purification in this life. . . do they get a blank check and get to go directly to heaven same as those who did faithfully submit to purificaiton in this life?

Think about this . . . . really think about this.

The bible is not clear on purgatory. It's not mentioned. However, it is clear that we need to die to ourselves daily. So if you have a problem with Bob, shouldn't you rectify that now? 1 John 3:15 says "Everyone who hates his brother is a murderer; and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him." It doesn't say that if we hate our brothers, that's quite alright, you're just human afterall and you can be cleansed of that sin after you die. No, it doesn't. But it does say that we need to die to ourselves daily. If you can provide actual relevant scripture to support purgatory, I would love to read it. Thanks again for your reply!

So are you saying that those who fail to die to themselves daily, but are not guilty of any sins unto death, mortal sins, are going to go to hell?

Are you saying that we get to be wishy washy about dying to self daily and still get the same instantaneous trip to heaven as those who were faithful in dying to themselves daily?

Doesn't that make working out our own salvation in fear and trembling a non necessity?

Doesn't that make dying to ourselves daily a non necessity?

Doesn't that then make the scriptures contradict scriptures?

If nothing else, even if you don't find it explicitly in scripture, Purgatory is logically necessary.

Epiphanygirl · Mar 9, 2009

thereselittleflower said:
cont. . . . .

cont . .. .

Where does the bible say we will be IMMEDIATELY with Jesus when we die?

It doesn't

So why are you interpreting scripture in a way that adds to what it says?

]

WHERE does the scripture say anything about IMMEDIATELY going into the presence of Christ?

Why are you adding a word that is not there in scripture?

ABSOLUTELY FALSE!

Do you believe that God gives us frivolous commands?

We are commanded to pray for one another, so how can you suggest, contrary to what scripture commands, that we do not need anyone to pray for us?

We are fully cleansed from sin at Baptism . . but there is no guarantee that we will be cleansed of the temporal effects of sin subsequent to that.

After we die, it's too late, isn't it? Game over. [/qoute]

After we die, it is too late to come into the friendship of God. . . that is decided when we die.

Purgatory is not about making the unsaved saved.

It is about fully purifying those who die in the friendship of God ie are saved already . .no question about it.

Nothing about purgator contradicts the bible. Purgatory does not give us a second chance.

That you believe that purgatory is about second chances, only demonstrates that you never understood the Catholic teaching on it to begin with.

No . .at least not believing what the Church teaches, which is something very different than you obviously think.

Please be careful not to tell us what to do as Catholics.

Second, I think you need to learn what we really believe and teach instead of assuming you know, for this post makes it obvious you do not know what purgatory is.

Absolutely not!

Well, start with learning what purgatory actually is so we can discuss what it is instead of what you wrongly believe it to be.

So why do scriptures say there is sin unto death and sin not unto death?

Sin unto death is mortal sin. Sin not unto death is venial sin.

It is in the bible.

So no, you are wrong. all sins do NOT make us worthy of eternal sepration from God. Only sins unto death do. . . ..

I think you are taking this out of context and if you are calling the Catholic Church the harlot of Babylon, I think you should reconsider what you are doing in our house by doing so.

You have many unjust fears about the Catholic Church because fundamentalist protestants have gotten to you and convinced you of their way of looking christianity.

However, if you do serious research into the Early Church you will find that it is these fundamentalists that have very little in common with the ancient Church even of the apostles.

Well, I hope I have given you some food for though.

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sigh.........It really saddens me when Catholic's are swayed from the truth of the FULL teachings of the Church and into the heresies of teachings like OSAS. Sadder still is when there is when a person leaves the Faith before they investigate lies about Her.......ie........."somebody "told" me that all I have to do is accept Jesus into my heart" Or "The Catholic church is unbiblical".......I used to be shocked by it, but after being on this site for a few years.........it's just sad. tHEY WERN'T TAUGHT THE FAITH PROPERLY as a youngster.......and maybe as adults, are either too lazy,etc to find out the truth.

MoNiCa4316 · Mar 9, 2009

That is why the purgatorial fires are ONLY for those who die in the friendship of God.

They do not save. They purify the saved.

MoNiCa4316 · Mar 9, 2009

I think it really says something that BOTH Protestants and Catholics consider their beliefs to be "Biblical".

Which one is, really?

For this you have to look at 2 things...

1. which one takes the WHOLE Bible into account, and doesn't take verses out of context?

2. how did the early Church and all Christianity up to the reformation interpret Scripture?

after doing some research, I saw that both lead to the Catholic interpretation

thereselittleflower · Mar 9, 2009

Amazing.Grace said:
I'm not offended and there's no need to mention any protestant faith. I had a Catholic upbringing, so I'm very familiar with Catholic doctrine.

However your question here about purgatory reveals that you are not as familiar with Cathoic doctrine as you believe yourself to be.

Catechism in the last half of last century was very poor .. what you were taught is not necessarily the full Catholic faith, and so your understanding was not properlhy formed, regardless of the grades you got, etc.

What you are exhibiting here is a total lack of understanding of what purgatory is.

This discussion is simply about purgatory and the scriptures. My understanding of being born again is Baptism. The belief that the Lord Jesus Christ died for the remission of your sins is what saves you. Baptism follows.

No. BAPTISM saves us. Belief is not enough by itself. The demons believe . . .

We immerse ourselves in order to die to sin and are resurrected in the new life of Christ Jesus. This is what I believe it means to be born again.

And without that, all the belief in the world will not save one if one knows the necessity of baptism and refuses it.

He who believes AND IS BAPTIZED shall be saved. . Belief is not enough.

The immersion into water is where our old self is buried and when we are raised out of the water, we are resurrected into our new life in Christ. We are made clean. We are made holy. I say immersion instead of baptism or sprinkling because the transliteration of the Greek work "baptizo" is actually "to dip" or "to immerse".

Please explain why the enuch wasn't immersed.

The little bit of water they found was not enough to fully immerse him.

The Early Christians did not believe that one must be fully immersed . . For instance, think about the catechumens who were waiting death in the first centuries in prison .. . they were not yet baptized. They were in the instruction period before they could be baptized and fully enter the Church. If they were about to die, they could baptize each other or even have a non believer baptize them in prision. . .

Do you honestly believe they had access to a big enough body of water to fully immerse them?

No.

What you read into the scriptures about baptism is actually adding to the scriptures, for you are in effect saying you are right and the early christians under the instruction and guidance of the apostles were wrong.

Isn't that quite presumptuous? Who would have the better understanding of what these Greek words meant? They, who lived and breathed them? Or you 2000 years later?

That makes sense when we think of baptism as a death and resurrection. I'm not sure why my beliefs sound like they are protestant. They are not made up by man. Rather, I get my info straight from the Bible.

Are you suggesting that your interpretation of scripture is infallible?

Because, unless you are saying this, what you are saying is that all you can have, at best, is a fallible understanding of what is in the bible, and that means, at best, all you can have is an understanding that is riddled with error to one degree or another.

So, how can you tell us that you get your info straight from the bible if that info is prone to error because you cannot infallibly interpret scripture?

Where is there an infallible interpreter for you to go to in order to ensure that your interpretation is correct?

We have such an infallible interpreter . . .but where is yours?

You said yourself that "the Bible is the word of God, it is 100% correct in matters of faith and morals" and I totally and 100% agree with you. It's more accurate than anything man has instituted as "truth" or doctrine. It's what we can fully rely on for accuracy. So when doctrine contradicts this, I have to question the doctrine. I don't question the bible.

But do you question yourself? Or do you assume that your interpretation is infallible?

The bible must be interpreted . . .who does the interpreting determines if the interpretation is falllible or infallible.

If we privately interpret scripture, as you are advocating above, then we only end up with a mixture of truth and error . . and how do we know what is in error?

If we privately interpret scripture, then we violate the command of scripture that tells us NO scripture is of any private interpretation.

If we privately interpret scripture, then we end up wresting the scripture, and scripture warns us that this is to our own destruction.

God did not leave us to privately interpret scripture. He did not leave us with, at best, an interpretation that is a mixture of truth with error.

God gave us the CHURCH, which is the Pillar and Foundation of Truth, and the infallible interpreter of scripture.

Where your interpretation contradicts that of the Catholic Church's teachings, that is where your interpretation is in error.

Isn't this why we should die to ourselves daily as Paul tells us many times? Why would we think we can do it after we die? Does the bible say we can? Does the bible say that once you die, you'll go to a holding area, a place, a prison, etc until we are cleansed? Isn't is the blood of Jesus that redeems us? Isn't the blood of Jesus that santifies us? Aren't we supposed to cleanse ourseves daily by dying to ourselves and not waiting for it to happen after we die? We are holy because Jesus made us that way. Since we are holy, we can enter heaven. this is why it's neccesary to die to ourselves daily. Scripture tells us that. Catholic doctrine says it's done after death. I refer you to 1 Corinthians 3:16-17
16Do you not know that you are a temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you?

So are you saying that those who believe in Jesus, are baptized, but are not perfect in their dying to self, and so are not fully purified in this life are going to hell?

That contradicts scripture which says there is sin not unto death.

Or do they get a free pass to heaven even though they didn't fully purify themselves?

That makes dying to self daily superfluous and unnecessary . . .does God command anything that is unnecessary?

17If any man destroys the temple of God, God will destroy him, for the temple of God is holy, and that is what you are.

We are a temple of God. God is holy and we too are holy because we are God's temple. God's temple cannot be unholy. Isn't this what scripture is telling us?

What happens then when we sin? Does God leave us?

It says that blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven.Matthew 12:31-32 And so I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. 32Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come. This sounds to me like it's an unforgiveable sin. It's not going to be forgiven. We have to take this scripture at face value. We can't add to Scripture and suggest that there must be something in between where the sin of the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit will be forgiven. Jesus tells us it won't be forgiven. So I conclude from this that it's just simply that, an unforgiveable sin. Do you really believe it's ok to add to scripture here? If you say that there must be something in between such as purgatory, that is adding.

This makes no sense. . there is no connection between the two .. so I don't understand your argument.

Only those going to heaven go to purgatory.

Epiphanygirl · Mar 9, 2009

OSAS is not only unbiblical in UN-Churchical......the Church is the Pillar and Foundation of truth (Bible and Sacred Tradition) The fullness of the Christian faith. People really need to investigate what Christ taught the Apostles(which btw, Christ NEVER wrote His teachings down)and the Apostles taught to us.........my goodness, there was NO Bible back then! The Jews had the Old Testament..........the writings of the Apostles and their Disciples were passed down, compiled by the Catholic Church........you would think that we would know what the Bible and the faith really teaches.........
*this also shows what happens when there is no central authority to preserve correct teachings and people just start interpreting on their own....sigh

JoabAnias · Mar 9, 2009

Amazing.Grace said:
Then how is Matthew 5:25-26 relevant to purgatory? If you say that prison in this scripture refers to purgatory, "there" would also equate to purgatory. So Jesus would have then said, surely you will not come out of there(purgatory) until you have paid up the last cent. This is how you all are viewing this, right? What do we have to pay? Why are we paying when salvation is a free gift from God? In reality, this passage has nothing to do with cleansing or purging, does it?

Yes it does and oh yea, there are many purifications in this life. My hope is they complete my journey and there will be no need of purgatory but if they don't I will be relieved to be in purgatory. It will mean I have, at long last, arrived home.

As far as Matthew 12:32, your little "..." seriously takes away from that passage. We all know Jesus specifically says that blasphemy of the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven in this age or the age to come.

It doesn't take away anything from it. It emphasizes what your ignoring.

That is the emphasis that Jesus put on the forgiveness of sins in the next life. Pay the penny here or there. Pretending its not owed is not going to get it payed though is it?

JoabAnias · Mar 9, 2009

JoabAnias said:
Can I ask you, do you believe in the "Bible alone"?

Bump because this question gets to the root of the problem.

thereselittleflower · Mar 9, 2009

fleethefire said:
I think you are referring to the unforgivable sin. Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven. Jesus is not implying that we will need forgiveness when we enter into eternity. His death and resurrection atone for our sins.

The point is, there is a distinction made between a sin that cannot be forgiven in the next age, and other sins. ..

So the clear implication is that there are sins that can be forgiven in the next. . these are sins not unto death as I have described before.

So, if one sins a sin not unto death, and does not receive forgiveness for it before death, how is it forgiven?

Can one with sin on their soul enter heaven?

How is this sin removed before one enters heaven?

Logically, purgatory is a necessity, for such sins must be removed, the soul must be purified, before the soul enters heaven.

How is that accomplished?

Do you understand that our sins are part of our works?

If we die with venial sins, sins not unto death, these are part of our works that will go through the fire in 1 Cor. and be burnt up, though we will be saved as through fire?

The fire burns up our works, such as venial sins, to purify US!

We cannot take these works with us to heaven . . . so they must be purified from us.

The bible tells us that this is done as through fire.

We will have an eternal body when we enter into heaven. Our present body will die, but our soul and spirit will live on. There also won't be any sin in heaven. Since God is loving and holy, there can be no sin in His presence.

No, we don't have an enternal body when we enter heaven. We enter heaven separated from our body. We will not receive our body until the Resurrection . . .then our dead body will be raised incorruptable and we receive this transformed body back.

Jesus came to save us body and soul, not just soul

Epiphanygirl · Mar 9, 2009

JoabAnias said:
Yes it does and oh yea, there are many purifications in this life. My hope is they complete my journey and there will be no need of purgatory but if they don't I will be relieved to be in purgatory. It will mean I have, at long last, arrived home.

It doesn't take away anything from it. It emphasizes what your ignoring.

That is the emphasis that Jesus put on the forgiveness of sins in the next life. Pay the penny here or there. Pretending its not owed is not going to get it payed though is it?

I kinda picture purgatory as the front porch into the house of Heaven......where one gets to take off their dirty shoes(like we do at our house)before entering the house.....the last step to getting the mud, grass, etc off before you get to come inside..........but you still get to come in.............just not with your shoes on

JoabAnias · Mar 9, 2009

Epiphanygirl said:
I kinda picture purgatory as the front porch into the house of Heaven......where one gets to take off their dirty shoes(like we do at our house)before entering the house.....the last step to getting the mud, grass, etc off before you get to come inside..........but you still get to come in.............just not with your shoes on

I have heard of locutions that actually put it as a place within heaven. I don't really care where it is as long as I can make it there. The sooner the better.

MoNiCa4316 · Mar 9, 2009

We will have an eternal body when we enter into heaven. Our present body will die, but our soul and spirit will live on.

In Heaven we won't have a body.. only a soul.

However in the Resurrection of the dead, (which will happen when Christ comes back) - we'll get our bodies back, and they'll be incorruptable and glorified

Epiphanygirl · Mar 9, 2009

thereselittleflower said:
The point is, there is a distinction made between a sin that cannot be forgiven in the next age, and other sins. ..

So the clear implication is that there are sins that can be forgiven in the next. . these are sins not unto death as I have described before.

So, if one sins a sin not unto death, and does not receive forgiveness for it before death, how is it forgiven?

Can one with sin on their soul enter heaven?

How is this sin removed before one enters heaven?

Logically, purgatory is a necessity, for such sins must be removed, the soul must be purified, before the soul enters heaven.

How is that accomplished?

Do you understand that our sins are part of our works?

If we die with venial sins, sins not unto death, these are part of our works that will go through the fire in 1 Cor. and be burnt up, though we will be saved as through fire?

The fire burns up our works, such as venial sins, to purify US!

We cannot take these works with us to heaven . . . so they must be purified from us.

The bible tells us that this is done as through fire.

No, we don't have an enternal body when we enter heaven. We enter heaven separated from our body. We will not receive our body until the Resurrection . . .then our dead body will be raised incorruptable and we receive this transformed body back.

Jesus came to save us body and soul, not just soul

Yep.........what about those who dies while commiting a sin.......maybe not a huge sin........but a sin nonetheless??
**There has to be a "process" a cleaning or sorts, we choose to name it Purgatory................

Questions about purgatory

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