Question

mesue · Sep 29, 2004

All sin separates us from God, and Jesus died for all sins, including murder.

All sin separates us from God, and Jesus died for all sins, including murder.

[Bible]1 John 1:9[/Bible]
is still in the Bible for any Christian to claim.
So is [Bible]Romans 6:15[/Bible]
[Bible]Galatians 2:21[/Bible]
and
[Bible]Hebrews 12:1[/Bible]

Vessel Of Mercy · Sep 29, 2004

Sword-In-Hand said:
Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is the rejection of Christ as the Savior. It's like when you are in a service or just anywhere and you feel God calling you and you turn your back on Him and don't accept His call to salvation. That's why that is the only sin that cannot be forgiven. You have to have Christ to be forgiven in the first place and if reject Him, obviously you don't have Him for forgiveness.

Sword-In-Hand, would a person be forgiven if he chose to accept Christ the next time he heard about Him? If he were forgiven then, then how is that first sin unforgivable?

12volt_man said:
Did he repent and ask for forgiveness through Christ? I don't believe that's true. Every one of us knows what God's laws are when we break them. There's a big difference between a momentary moral lapse and a lifestyle of willfully disobedient sin.

I completely agree with you! If the man were truly repentant than God would forgive him. It is God who leads us to true repentance. I quote this again because I can't say it better: "There's a big difference between a momentary moral lapse and a lifestyle of willfully disobedient sin."

I am sorry I have so little to say, but I hope that helped someone. May you all have grace and peace multiplied unto you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus.

Ben

costlygrace · Sep 29, 2004

I completely agree with you! If the man were truly repentant than God would forgive him... I quote this again because I can't say it better: "There's a big difference between a momentary moral lapse and a lifestyle of willfully disobedient sin."

Very true. But for someone to go that far, there is bound to be lifestyle issues involved, because it shows a hardened conscience. However, the opportunity for forgiveness is still there, if the sinner is truly repentant.

Vessel Of Mercy · Sep 29, 2004

costlygrace said:
Very true. But for someone to go that far, there is bound to be lifestyle issues involved, because it shows a hardened conscience. However, the opportunity for forgiveness is still there, if the sinner is truly repentant.

Yes, you're right. There are definitely problems with his lifestyle already if he could just murder someone.

Sword-In-Hand · Sep 29, 2004

Vessel Of Mercy said:
Sword-In-Hand, would a person be forgiven if he chose to accept Christ the next time he heard about Him? If he were forgiven then, then how is that first sin unforgivable?

Definitely! The invitation to accept the Lord is always available. Once we have accepted Christ as our Savior then there isn't anything we can't be forgiven for.

People have often argued as to whether a lost person's prayers are heard by God. While I cannot judge what God hears and doesn't, I know through scripture that Jesus is our Mediator, Advocate and only way to the Father, so if we don't have a mediator or advocate how can we communicate with the Father? See what I mean?

The only sin that is unforgivable is Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, but if you accept Christ and don't reject Him, you're not committing that unforgivable sin.

kiwiekat · Sep 29, 2004

If someone threatened a Christian with a gun and tell him to deny his faith, and the Christian did out of fear...would he/she really be rejecting God or lying? Would the person be forgiven? Of course, that's just a scenario, I hope that never happens to any believer.

Also, can someone show me verses that say Christians won't go through the tribulation?

Thanks everyone!

kyzar · Sep 29, 2004

kiwiekat said:
If someone threatened a Christian with a gun and tell him to deny his faith, and the Christian did out of fear...would he/she really be rejecting God or lying? Would the person be forgiven? Of course, that's just a scenario, I hope that never happens to any believer.

Also, can someone show me verses that say Christians won't go through the tribulation?

Thanks everyone!

Good point... I would like to think that I would never 'reject' my Lord, but like Peter, i guess even the best of us can deny Him at times... Speaking of Peter, I have no doubt that he is in heaven now yes? He denied Jesus three times in the one night, did he reject Christ, or simply lie?

Secondly I too would like some verses about Chrisitians not going through the tribulation. I believe they don't, but Revelation is something I tend to avoid...

MbiaJc · Sep 29, 2004

kiwiekat said:
If someone threatened a Christian with a gun and tell him to deny his faith, and the Christian did out of fear...would he/she really be rejecting God or lying? Would the person be forgiven? Of course, that's just a scenario, I hope that never happens to any believer.

Also, can someone show me verses that say Christians won't go through the tribulation?

Thanks everyone!

There is no verse that says christians you will not go through the tribulations. However if we put line upon line upon line we come to that conclusionn. Here are the main verses that convinced me.

2Thessalonians 2:3-12 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God. 5Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? 6And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. 7For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. 8And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: 9Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, 10And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 12That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

The He who is withholking now is the Holy Spirit. When He is taken outof the way(caught back up to heaven) I believe the Church goes with Him to meet the Lord in the air. And we will return with our Lord at the end of the great tribulation. The battle of armageddon takes place, the beast and false prophet are cast them into the lake of fire. Satan is bound and we live and reign with Christ here on earth for a 1000 years. The rapture I think actually starts the day of the Lord which is a 1000 yrs.

There are more verses that I think confirm the saints will not go through the tribulation. However 2 Thes. is the one that convinced me when the rapture will take place.

Sword-In-Hand · Sep 29, 2004

I too don't know much about the rapture. My pastor believes in pre-trib rapture of the church and he has shown the verses that support that belief, but then again a colleague of mine is just putting the finishing touches on his book that is the exact oppostite of what the Left Behind author, Tim Lahaye says. He believes that the church will go through the entire tribulation period. I've read Revelation, but I've never studied it and to know prophesy is to almost have a special callling on your life to fully understand it. Honestly some things I don't understand.

I want to believe in pre-trib rapture, because honestly I don't want to go through those horrible years, but one verse sticks out in my mind is...

Hebrews 9:27-28, "And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this comes judgment, so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many."

If every man and woman is appointed to die at one time, then where would the rapture take place? When we are raptured up are we killed? That's the only verse that stumps me about the rapture and if anyone has any insight, that would be great.

MbiaJc · Sep 29, 2004

kyzar said:
Good point... I would like to think that I would never 'reject' my Lord, but like Peter, i guess even the best of us can deny Him at times... Speaking of Peter, I have no doubt that he is in heaven now yes? He denied Jesus three times in the one night, did he reject Christ, or simply lie?

Secondly I too would like some verses about Chrisitians not going through the tribulation. I believe they don't, but Revelation is something I tend to avoid...

Peter just denied Christ with his mouth not his heart. For he never stoped, for one second, believing that Jesus was the Christ the Son of the Living God that came to take away the sins of the world.

MbiaJc · Sep 29, 2004

Sword-In-Hand said:
I too don't know much about the rapture. My pastor believes in pre-trib rapture of the church and he has shown the verses that support that belief, but then again a colleague of mine is just putting the finishing touches on his book that is the exact oppostite of what the Left Behind author, Tim Lahaye says. He believes that the church will go through the entire tribulation period. I've read Revelation, but I've never studied it and to know prophesy is to almost have a special callling on your life to fully understand it. Honestly some things I don't understand.

I want to believe in pre-trib rapture, because honestly I don't want to go through those horrible years, but one verse sticks out in my mind is...

Hebrews 9:27-28, "And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this comes judgment, so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many."

If every man and woman is appointed to die at one time, then where would the rapture take place? When we are raptured up are we killed? That's the only verse that stumps me about the rapture and if anyone has any insight, that would be great.

The death this verse is talking about is the one Christ died in our stead. Paul makes it verry clear what will hapen to the saints that are still alive when the Church is caught up.

1Cor. 15:52-57 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. 55O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? 56The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law. 57But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

The living saints will be changed(put on immortality) in a twinkle of an eye.

Hope that helps

kiwiekat · Sep 30, 2004

Oh, it's good that Christians might not go through it, but I guess we still have to be prepared for the worst. :S

I read an article in a site called Evidence for God from Science. The article says Christians probably will go through the tribulation because the order of these verses seem to indicate that:

Matthew 24:6 - "...but that is not yet the end"
Matthew 24:8 - "But all these things are merely the beginning..."
Matthew 24:14 - "And this gospel ... shall be preached in the whole world..., and then the end shall come"
Matthew 24:29 - "But immediately after the tribulation of those days..."
Matthew 24:30 - "and then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky..."

There's also a verse that says "And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect's sake those days will be shortened." Matt 24:22. Does this have anything to do with the tribulation?

Also, are all Christians persecuted for their faith? What kind of persecution is it? I did ask this a while ago, but I would like to hear more on what different people think.

Thanks again everyone for helping me!

Sword-In-Hand · Sep 30, 2004

MbiaJc said:
The death this verse is talking about is the one Christ died in our stead. Paul makes it verry clear what will hapen to the saints that are still alive when the Church is caught up.

1Cor. 15:52-57 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. 55O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? 56The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law. 57But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

The living saints will be changed(put on immortality) in a twinkle of an eye.

Hope that helps

I've read that before. I don't doubt there will be a rapture, I just wonder when it will be, pre, mid or post.

MbiaJc · Oct 2, 2004

Sword-In-Hand said:
I've read that before. I don't doubt there will be a rapture, I just wonder when it will be, pre, mid or post.

Pre. that when the Holy Spirit leaves. I don't think the Church would be left here without Him.

Sword-In-Hand · Oct 2, 2004

That's what my pastor has said before too, but the question arrives. If the Holy Spirit is gone, which is the convicting, drawing Spirit of the Lord, how will anyone left behind be saved?

MbiaJc · Oct 4, 2004

Sword-In-Hand said:
That's what my pastor has said before too, but the question arrives. If the Holy Spirit is gone, which is the convicting, drawing Spirit of the Lord, how will anyone left behind be saved?

This is where knowledge of OT and of Israel history helps. When the church is raptured God goes back to dealing with natural Iseral as before the Church age. The Holy Spirit will be here as before measured out. Whereas He was poured out without measure on the Church.

MbiaJc · Oct 4, 2004

kiwiekat said:
Oh, it's good that Christians might not go through it, but I guess we still have to be prepared for the worst. :S

I read an article in a site called Evidence for God from Science. The article says Christians probably will go through the tribulation because the order of these verses seem to indicate that:

Matthew 24:6 - "...but that is not yet the end"
Matthew 24:8 - "But all these things are merely the beginning..."
Matthew 24:14 - "And this gospel ... shall be preached in the whole world..., and then the end shall come"
Matthew 24:29 - "But immediately after the tribulation of those days..."
Matthew 24:30 - "and then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky..."

There's also a verse that says "And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect's sake those days will be shortened." Matt 24:22. Does this have anything to do with the tribulation?

Also, are all Christians persecuted for their faith? What kind of persecution is it? I did ask this a while ago, but I would like to hear more on what different people think.

Thanks again everyone for helping me!

You are not listening close enough or who you are listening to is not distinguishing between the rapture and Christ actual return to earth which is 7yr apart. In Matthew 24 there is 7yr. between verse 14 and 30. At the rapture the saints go to meet the Lord in the air after verse 14 is complete. The Lord doesn't touch earth then. It is after verse 30 the Lords feet actually touch earth and we will return alongside Him.

kiwiekat · Oct 5, 2004

Thank you for the clarification.

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