Question

JGGray6 · Sep 28, 2014

Why do Catholics and Anglicans pray to Mary? The bible doesn't mention that anyone besides Jesus should be prayed to except for The Almighty. I'm troubled by this and just want to know what the belief is and why it is practiced. PS: I come in peace.

Liberasit · Sep 29, 2014

JGGray6 said:
Why do Catholics and Anglicans pray to Mary? The bible doesn't mention that anyone besides Jesus should be prayed to except for The Almighty. I'm troubled by this and just want to know what the belief is and why it is practiced. PS: I come in peace.

This Anglican does not pray to Mary.

I pray to God the Father, through Jesus Christ, in the power of the Holy Spirit.

Targaryen · Sep 29, 2014

Some Anglo-Catholics would disagree with that broad sweeping statement Liberasit.

Some Anglo-Catholics, like myself do practise Marian devotions. We share the same view as the RCC and the EOC's that Mary is the Θεοτόκος or Theotokos....the Mother of God.

We do not pray to Mary in a sense we'd pray to the Father, Jesus or the Holy Spirit. Mary is not above the Trinty and should not be viewed as such. Which is why Anglicans may differ then Romans on the concept of her as co-redemptorix.

However, as first amongst the saints she is the chief of the heavenly intercessors, that can help plead for our case before the throne of the Heavenly Grace.

We alos differ from the romans in the concept of the Assumption of the Blessed Virgin. we do not believe that it occured after more modern understand and theological study on the subject.

This wikipedia article can tell you a bit more

Anglican Marian theology - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

PaladinValer · Sep 29, 2014

JGGray6 said:
Why do Catholics and Anglicans pray to Mary?

The problem with your belief is because it is based on an arbitrarily made-up definition of the word "pray". "Pray" does not mean "worship"; it means "ask".

As soon as this fact is accepted, your objections will immediately cease because they won't be based on an incorrect understanding of the English language.

The bible doesn't mention that anyone besides Jesus should be prayed to except for The Almighty.

Wrong. The Holy Writ says no one except God can receive worship; latria in Greek. Pray is an entirely different word, so to conflate the two, like in English, is simply wrong.

I'm troubled by this and just want to know what the belief is and why it is practiced. PS: I come in peace.

It is because we are commanded to pray for one another according to Holy Scripture and according to the historical record, Christians have prayed to the blessed departed since among the earliest of records.

JGGray6 · Sep 29, 2014

But why pray to someone who is dead (even if you say pray means "ask") if you can pray to someone who is alive (Jesus) and can actually do something about your problems and concerns? Again, I'm not trying to break forum rules. I really want to know these things.

John Shrewsbury · Sep 29, 2014

Mary isn't dead, anymore than any other believer is dead. She is in Heaven with Christ. We pray to Mary to ask for her intercessionary help. We are not worshipping her.

Sean611 · Sep 29, 2014

JGGray6 said:
But why pray to someone who is dead (even if you say pray means "ask") if you can pray to someone who is alive (Jesus) and can actually do something about your problems and concerns? Again, I'm not trying to break forum rules. I really want to know these things.

Revelation seems to indicate that not only are the Saints alive, but they pray for us as well.

Asking the Saints to pray for us is no different than asking our fellow parishioners to pray for us IMHO.

Now, I think that most of us would agree that asking the Saints to "save us" or to perform tasks apart from God is an entirely different can of worms.

PaladinValer · Sep 29, 2014

JGGray6 said:
But why pray to someone who is dead (even if you say pray means "ask") if you can pray to someone who is alive (Jesus) and can actually do something about your problems and concerns?

Have we forgotten what the Holy Bible says about Christ's victory?

Death is depowered; the Gates of Hades lay broken, torn, mangled, and in pieces. Either Christ won victory or Jesus is a failed Messiah and Christianity is bunk.

The righteous dead were raised with Christ; people witnessed their rising according to Holy Scripture. Paradise was emptied; Jesus even told the Penitent Thief, St. Dismas, that on the same day they would meet there. That isn't heaven nor hell; we know for a fact due to the historical record that 1st century Jews and Christians since our religion's beginning believed in an intermediate state where souls went upon biological death. Paradise, or "Abraham's Bosom", was the name given to it, and it was considered to be a part of sheol, or hades in Greek.

Is God a god of the dead? No; He's the God of Life. Does He forsake those who've passed on? Unless we have a non-Christian view of Him, no. Communion with God is not interrupted by death, or again, Christ is a failed, worthless Messiah. St. Paul even says death is gain. Why? He tells us: it is to be in the Presence of God, for with its gates in ruin, God's Presence shines even in that once murky realm. They who are biologically dead are more alive than we who are still biologically alive, for their souls dwell in His Light as they await the Second Advent of God the Son for their resurrection.

Biological death does not sever one from the Communion of God, which is the Mystical Body of Christ, the Holy Church. All who have been baptized in Christ's death, burial/descent, and resurrection are members of the Holy Church, and not even death has power over it for it is in union with Him and His Resurrection. The Churches Militant, Expectant, and Triumphant, that is, its members biologically alive on Earth, biologically deceased but alive in Sheol/Hades, and those raised with Christ in Heaven, are forever united and in full communion with each other, through the same God the Holy Spirit dwelling with them. If that is not true, then Christ's death is worthless.

JGGray6 · Sep 29, 2014

The bible says no one has seen heaven, nobody is there yet. Anyone dead is resting in peace. But I will take my leave before I break forum rules.

mark46 · Sep 29, 2014

We have a very linear view of time. Even if one believes that the saints are not in heaven until the final day (certainly not unreasonable), it does not follow that they cannot hear our prayers from that time and place.

IMHO, this has never been a huge issue. We ask folks we do not know personally to pray with for for us all the time. I see now reason to limit this request to the living.

HOWEVER, I understand those who believe that only practices given in Scripture should be practiced. I just disagree with that view.

And BTW, the Anglican article specifically prohibit praying to the saints as was being practiced by the Roman Church at the time of the Reformation. Many ignore the Articles. Many understand their historical importance (the TEC view) as other churches view their Reformation documents.

JGGray6 said:
The bible says no one has seen heaven, nobody is there yet. Anyone dead is resting in peace. But I will take my leave before I break forum rules.

Targaryen · Sep 29, 2014

JGGray6 said:
The bible says no one has seen heaven, nobody is there yet.

mark46 · Sep 29, 2014

Is it confusing that some believe the saints are sleeping until the last day when all believers will be raised from the dead?

LiberalAnglicanCatholic said:

Targaryen · Sep 29, 2014

mark46 said:
Is it confusing that some believe the saints are sleeping until the last day when all believers will be raised from the dead?

For some Anglicans, we don't exactly buy into to the concepts of soul sleep or purgatory, so yeah it can be a bit disconcerting. Not confusing though.

PaladinValer · Sep 29, 2014

JGGray6 said:
The bible says no one has seen heaven, nobody is there yet.

Oh? And of Enoch and Elijah?

And mind all, this completely ignores what I wrote earlier, since Paradise=/=Heaven.

Anyone dead is resting in peace.

Ambiguous statement.

But I will take my leave before I break forum rules.

Already have, especially when its been made clear our replies were ignored and there was no real intent to actually learn. If that's different, then I challenge a reply based on what our posts actually say. Otherwise, the fruits have been known and will be remembered and the knowledge of them shall be shared.

Liberasit · Sep 29, 2014

LiberalAnglicanCatholic said:
Some Anglo-Catholics would disagree with that broad sweeping statement

I wasn't speaking for Anglo Catholics. I was talking about myself.

PaladinValer · Sep 29, 2014

Liberasit said:
I wasn't speaking for Anglo Catholics. I was talking about myself.

The question was not about individuals but the whole.

Liberasit · Sep 30, 2014

PaladinValer said:
The question was not about individuals but the whole.

The whole is made of individuals.

Targaryen · Sep 30, 2014

Liberasit said:
The whole is made of individuals.

Not when addressing a question that concerns the whole rather then the individuals that make up the whole.

Bootless argument.

PaladinValer · Sep 30, 2014

Liberasit said:
The whole is made of individuals.

Individuals speaking as one, not separately. The Church is not a loose confederation made up of independent individuals but a organism made up of interdependent members.

Liberasit · Sep 30, 2014

LiberalAnglicanCatholic said:
Not when addressing a question that concerns the whole rather then the individuals that make up the whole.

Bootless argument.

I answered according to my interpretation of the OP's question. I didn't detect a hidden line of questioning.

My response was very much in line with evangelical teaching. I don't know any Anglican who prays to Mary in real life, probably because there are very few Anglo Catholics in the UK.

I don't get why my experience is inferior to anyone else's here.

I will reassure the OP once more that not all Anglicans venerate Mary.

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