Question

127.0.0.1 · Sep 26, 2010

Michael the Iconographer said:
Because out of greed they want to make money off Roman Catholics who want things that look like icons of these "saints".

You mean like how we sell icons of Orthodox Saints and Orthodox books, Orthodox Bibles, Orthodox school planners, Orthodox home-school programs, Orthodox T-shirts, Orthodox long sleeve shirts, Othodox incense, Orthodox vestments which cost a fortune...

none of those are to make money. Why those icons are practically given away for free, which is why my dad couldn't afford an icon of his own saint, from an iconographer.

- But there's noooooooo way anyone could want to make money off of Orthodoxy the Motion Picture.

Andrew21091 · Sep 26, 2010

Michael the Iconographer said:
Explain the other Catholic "icons" they sell. Wait, yes I know it. They are trying to build bridges while being in direct disobedience to the Church. Sorry, that line of thought holds no weight with me.

Rather than greed, this is a case where they seemed to have not quite converted all the way into the faith. They are very into the ecumenical movement but they take it way to far. I don't see how they are allowed to do such things.

heart of peace · Sep 26, 2010

I am referring to New Skete Monastery actually. I did not get the sense of any greed from the wonderful nuns and monks when I visited. They have been nothing but kind and generous to me each time I visit.

Nick T said:
Orthodox wiki says they are ex-francisans. Perhaps its not greed but rather a desire to continue to venerate their patron even after conversion?

Joshua G. said:
<snip>that there are several other reasons it could be other than greed. And there may be more that we don't even know.

Why can't we just say "that's wrong" and stop at that not assuming what is going on in their hearts?

I'm thinking that there is more to this than greed. I'd prefer to not assign negative intent, but I have inquired further about this with the nun I correspond with from the monastery. I'm not at all comfortable with the view that this is from a standpoint of greed, so I respectfully disagree with your perspective, Michael.

So, I came across this info on OCA's website about it:
OCA - Q & A - St. Francis of Assisi

Joshua G. · Sep 26, 2010

My favorite response is a mixture of Rusmeiter's and Nick T's.

PS: I have no idea how to use that multi-quote button... lol

Joshua G. · Sep 26, 2010

Thanks for the Ms Dahl!

I have to say this (the Q and A response from Fr. John M.) put some of my fears aside although I am still concerned. But at the very least it seems that no ill-intent or renegade intentions are behind this. It would seem the bishop is alright with this (even if just passively) since the offical Q and A guy (Fr. John M.) of the OCA didn't take a hardline.

That doesn't make it right, but it does put things in a new light... for me at least.

Josh

Fr. John M. of OCA Q&A said:
Thank you for your enquiry. I checked out the New Skete web site and indeed they have made available icon cards of Francis of Assisi and Clare.

While it may appear odd that an Orthodox monastery would be selling icons of individuals who are not listed on the Orthodox calendar of saints, I am not sure that the appearance of such products will "lead someone astray," as you suggest. [Quite honestly, one could think of dozens of other things that could be dangerous to one's soul and salvation, and these would not include a card with the image and prayer of Francis of Assisi printed thereon.]

By way of background, the New Skete Monastic Community was for years before entering Orthodox Christianity, a Byzantine Rite Franciscan community, so at least one can consider this to be the reason they make cards of St Francis or St Clare available to the public.

I might also add that there have been occasional comparisons made by some Orthodox Christians between Francis of Assisi and Seraphim of Sarov.

Another way to look at this: New Skete's site also advertises cheesecakes and books on raising dogs; this in no way implies that Orthodox Christianity has an official policy on desserts or pets, or that the Orthodox Church promotes the eating of cheesecake as opposed to chocolate pie.

Please do not think that I am being glib here, because I certainly am not. I do hope, however, that I have provided a different angle from which to view your concern.

PS: for the record, I LOVE St. Francis of Assisi, and his prayer that is so well-known. That doesn't make it right, but I share in the monks' and nuns' love for the Saint.

heart of peace · Sep 26, 2010

Also, from their website:

While originally the monks and nuns followed the Byzantine Rite within the Roman Catholic Church, in 1979, after many years of studying and practicing Orthodox theology and liturgy, New Skete came to the conclusion that it could best serve the renewal of Eastern Christian monastic and liturgical life within the Orthodox Church. With the encouragement and counsel of Fr Alexander Schmemann and Fr John Meyendorff, they were received into the Orthodox Church of America by Metropolitan Theodosius. As members of the Orthodox Church for the past twenty five years, New Skete works actively for the reconciliation and mutual understanding of all Christians, particularly the Orthodox Church with the Roman Catholic Church.

PS Joshua, you select the MQ+ icon - it stands for multi-quote.

Joshua G. · Sep 26, 2010

I do that and then what? where do I see the quotes? I clicked "go advanced" and saw nothing.

heart of peace · Sep 26, 2010

You then select "post reply" and it should pop up in the new window to post your reply.

Michael G · Sep 26, 2010

Andrew21091 said:
Rather than greed, this is a case where they seemed to have not quite converted all the way into the faith. They are very into the ecumenical movement but they take it way to far. I don't see how they are allowed to do such things.

There are those who take false ecumenism even farther than New Skete does with "icons", but I am not going to name them on here because I don't want to advertise for them.

Joshua G. · Sep 27, 2010

I think I know who you're referring to. I get their mailings all the time. My priest said I should throw them away. I do, now.

gzt · Sep 27, 2010

All we know is that, for the time being, they're allowed to do this. A lot of people don't like it, some people are indifferent, some approve. They're not a "traditional" monastery. I think they're largely irrelevant to the OCA at large and that may be part of why they're allowed to subsist despite their "controversy". I think if it scandalizes you, it might be best to just let it fade away because of its relative irrelevance. There's not much of a need to go all "DEFENSOR FIDEI" on everything that seems a little off...

Damaris · Sep 27, 2010

MsDahl said:
Thanks, Michael....That's what I thought, so why is an Orthodox Church in America monastery observing this day? How should I take this information? I feel concerned by this information.

Why isn't he considered a saint according to the Orthodox Church?

New Skete is a special case. They were cut an extraordinary amount of slack when they converted to Orthodoxy. They were allowed to do things like celebrate the feast of Francis of Assisi and paint iconographically-styled portraits (without halos) of non-canonized people whom they admired. (They also eat meat, and the women do not cover their hair.)

Normally, things like these are not done formally by communities, but Metropolitan Theodosius chose, as part of his episcopal prerogative, to extend to them this oikonomia. I think of them less as an Orthodox monastery (and holding them to a standard they are unable and unwilling to meet) and more as an Orthodox religious community of special needs and purpose. Although they don't run their community in a traditionally Orthodox monastic manner, it's important to remember that in no way do their deviations from Orthodox traditions stray into the heretical. It's not a place I'd like to go on retreat myself, but it's not time to declare anathema on them yet, either.

It should be noted that Metropolitan Jonah, who is their bishop by virtue of their being a stavropegial institution, has a strong traditional formation as an abbot, having been in charge of a traditional Old Calendar monastery under the patronage of St. John the Wonderworker(!), who nevertheless did not see fit to make any alterations to New Skete upon assuming his position of authority over them.

Joshua G. · Sep 27, 2010

gzt said:
All we know is that, for the time being, they're allowed to do this. A lot of people don't like it, some people are indifferent, some approve. They're not a "traditional" monastery. I think they're largely irrelevant to the OCA at large and that may be part of why they're allowed to subsist despite their "controversy". I think if it scandalizes you, it might be best to just let it fade away because of its relative irrelevance. There's not much of a need to go all "DEFENSOR FIDEI" on everything that seems a little off...

well... that's a pretty good point.

tapi · Sep 27, 2010

Yes, when our hierarchs clearly are not too concerned with the situation, maybe us laypersons should think twice before condemning these people or questioning the purity of their faith.

Antony in Tx · Sep 27, 2010

"Was it cheesecake eating dogs visiting St.Seraphim of Sarov in the forest???

IS OUTRAGE!!!"

-Fr Vasily

MKJ · Sep 27, 2010

This reminds me of the thread where someone asked if it would be ok, upon conversion to Orthodoxy, to continue to pray to a Catholic saint who had been important to his family.

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