Question

OK after attending church last week, the lesson I was supposed to learn was that it is Christ that changes me from a dirty atheist as I am a believer - not me...

Perhaps I wasn't listening correctly or picked it up wrong so can anyone explain this statement to me?

Thanks,
Owen.

One way of thinking about 'God versus humans changing people' is that when you look at religious people, they often take credit for doing the right thing or feel pretty good about themselves:

Luke 18:11 "The Pharisee stood up and prayed about himself: 'God, I thank you that I am not like other men--robbers, evildoers, adulterers--or even like this tax collector. I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.'"

This is because religious people are often trying to earn their way into heaven in some way. They feel that if they don't 'step up' and do the right thing almost 100% of the time, then they will be sent to hell. If you are putting so much effort into something like being a good person then you are likely to take a lot of credit for it and be very arrogant about your goodness to everyone else because it's so hard.

In Christianity this attitude is supposed to be stopped when people rely only on Jesus/God to change them and save them. The way it works is that God decides to forgive you and places you 'in Christ' (which means that when you are resurrected, you will be as good as Jesus because God makes your sinful nature die on the cross with Jesus and you are resurrected with Jesus' perfect nature). You don't have to do anything to earn God's forgiveness in any way. God just decides to give it.

Actually, you don't have to do anything after you're saved either. But you WILL change after God forgives you because God is now living in you. So even though you don't have to do anything for salvation, you will change and want to change because of the Holy Spirit living in you, and no change (given that) would be like oceans falling upwards into space.

owenlikesknowing said:

OK after attending church last week, the lesson I was supposed to learn was that it is Christ that changes me from a dirty atheist as I am a believer - not me...

Perhaps I wasn't listening correctly or picked it up wrong so can anyone explain this statement to me?

Thanks,
Owen.

Click to expand...

HELLO, MY FRIEND!

Your communique above is a little confusing, so i am not quite sure which "statement" you are referring to.

Firstly, however, let me point out that there is no such thing as a "dirty atheist" in God's eyes--we are ALL His beloved children.

Secondly, it is indeed Christ Who, through His life, teachings, sacrificial deal, and glorious resurrection and ascension, has made it possible for us, as prodigal children, to return to Abba's patiently waiting and eternally loving open arms.

Beyond these two Truths, i am not sure what your question means.

Help me out?

ABBA'S fool,
ephraim

why in the world would an atheist go to church....kinda like a diabetic going to a candy store. didn't understand your question either but couldn't resist.

seriously, i hope you find what it is your looking for.......it's a little thing called redemption and it's only available thru the shed blood of the Lord Jesus.

owenlikesknowing said:

OK after attending church last week, the lesson I was supposed to learn was that it is Christ that changes me from a dirty atheist as I am a believer - not me...

Perhaps I wasn't listening correctly or picked it up wrong so can anyone explain this statement to me?

Thanks,
Owen.

Click to expand...

eh?

We are all sinners. A real christian doesn't have the desire to practice sin and doesn't in actions. But no one is sinless on earth.

Maybe this will explain it- Are you a good person? www.livingwaters.com/good/ This is the only spiritual medicine that will help us because all of mankind has fallen spiritually. Would you reject your doctor if he said there is only one cure for your physical illness? God standards are so high-no one can work their way to heaven alone. So, Christ saves us through grace by faith-its a gift. Good works is a byproduct of saving faith. This is why we need a personal Lord and Savior.

While human efforts can make strides in the betterment of a person from a human perspective, they cannot make you perfectly Christ-like. We are all too depraved for that. And they cannot make you spiritually "alive" in Christ. Only being born again according to John 3 can that happen, otherwise we are all still "dead" in our sins.

There are some folks that believe people are unable to trust in Christ, unless they are first altered by irresistible grace. If that was the lesson, perhaps you should attend a non-Calvinist church. One thing is for sure, whenever a atheist presents Christian doctrine, they always present Calvinism, using the mistaken views as both a whipping boy and justification for rejecting Christ.

There is an analogy which illustrates the Church as a spiritual hospital. No one is perfect. Just something to keep in mind.

ephraim

HELLO, MY FRIEND!

Your communique above is a little confusing, so i am not quite sure which "statement" you are referring to.

Firstly, however, let me point out that there is no such thing as a "dirty atheist" in God's eyes--we are ALL His beloved children.

Secondly, it is indeed Christ Who, through His life, teachings, sacrificial deal, and glorious resurrection and ascension, has made it possible for us, as prodigal children, to return to Abba's patiently waiting and eternally loving open arms.

Beyond these two Truths, i am not sure what your question means.

Help me out?

Click to expand...

Haha the dirty atheist bit was merely a joke

A lot of people are confused by what I meant. Poorly written I must admit - ill go into detail. The pastor said:

"Imagine yourself in a cafe and think about three types of people that you see; theres your cousin who used to be a Christain but has faded away from it and no longer really believes, theres your atheist headmaster who lets Scripture Union etc. happen in his school but has often embarrassed the odd RE teacher with his arguments, and theres the "teenager" outside eyeing up something hes going to steal."

He said "These people have all forsaken Christ and so have made him their enemy. You think these people can't be saved. You think that theres no wy to convince the Head, no way the cousin could ever be bothered, and that the youth is beyond redemption. That there is nothing you can do to save them. This is because you forget that it is not you that makes the change in them but Christ. You something think that its your arguments that change someone, or their inner strenght, but Its actually Christ that makes them change from enemies to friend, not you nor them."

Thats the best I can do at explaining what he said. Where is the free will in that...?

Also forgive my ignorence Ephraim but its always intrigued me, who is this abba that you talk about. I have NEVER heard anyone talk about him but you lol

Hog Red - Haha one of the best comparisons ever

why in the world would an atheist go to church....kinda like a diabetic going to a candy store. didn't understand your question either but couldn't resist.

seriously, i hope you find what it is your looking for.......it's a little thing called redemption and it's only available thru the shed blood of the Lord Jesus.

Click to expand...

I'm looking for redemption mate, getting to the Lord is far harder for non-Christians than you might imagi - give us a break

ebia - good contribution - jk

Celticflower - I'm open like I say a lot. Im going to open another thread in a minute dealing with these types of things.

Sorry I didn't get back to everyone - I'm honestly wrecked. Non of that will be coherent but hey - itll give you a laugh

Adios,
Owen.

We have free will in our day-to-day lives but not when it comes to salvation. We're unable to turn to Jesus unless we have the indwelling Holy Spirit. And at that point we're already saved, the Holy Spirit is just making it known to us. I suggest reading Romans 8 for a better explanation. Coincidentally it will help you with your "Abba" question. Abba is an Aramaic word meaning "Daddy" (closer, more child-like than "Father").

owenlikesknowing said:

"Imagine yourself in a cafe and think about three types of people that you see; theres your cousin who used to be a Christain but has faded away from it and no longer really believes, theres your atheist headmaster who lets Scripture Union etc. happen in his school but has often embarrassed the odd RE teacher with his arguments, and theres the "teenager" outside eyeing up something hes going to steal."

He said "These people have all forsaken Christ and so have made him their enemy. You think these people can't be saved. You think that theres no wy to convince the Head, no way the cousin could ever be bothered, and that the youth is beyond redemption. That there is nothing you can do to save them. This is because you forget that it is not you that makes the change in them but Christ. You something think that its your arguments that change someone, or their inner strenght, but Its actually Christ that makes them change from enemies to friend, not you nor them."

Thats the best I can do at explaining what he said. Where is the free will in that...?

Click to expand...

We always seem to live in a paradox between "free will" and determinism, whether we are talking theology, sociology or science.

Also forgive my ignorence Ephraim but its always intrigued me, who is this abba that you talk about. I have NEVER heard anyone talk about him but you lol

Click to expand...

Abba is the Aramaic word usually translated father. There isn't isn't a perfect equivalent in modern English - its more intimate than father but not just a child word like daddy nor as casual as dad. The French papa is close.

owenlikesknowing said:

ephraim

A lot of people are confused by what I meant. Poorly written I must admit - ill go into detail. The pastor said:

"Imagine yourself in a cafe and think about three types of people that you see; theres your cousin who used to be a Christain but has faded away from it and no longer really believes, theres your atheist headmaster who lets Scripture Union etc. happen in his school but has often embarrassed the odd RE teacher with his arguments, and theres the "teenager" outside eyeing up something hes going to steal."

He said "These people have all forsaken Christ and so have made him their enemy. You think these people can't be saved. You think that theres no wy to convince the Head, no way the cousin could ever be bothered, and that the youth is beyond redemption. That there is nothing you can do to save them. This is because you forget that it is not you that makes the change in them but Christ. You something think that its your arguments that change someone, or their inner strenght, but Its actually Christ that makes them change from enemies to friend, not you nor them."

Thats the best I can do at explaining what he said. Where is the free will in that...?

Click to expand...

MY BROTHER,

Freewill is an absolutely inviolable gift from God to each and every one of His children. If we did not have a freewill which God refuses to tamper with, there would be no sinners and all humankind would spend eternity with their Creator because, of course, that is God's will in the matter.

However, we have been given the solemn charge of making our own decisions in life, and some choose wisely reaping Salvation, and some choose darkness and reap eternal separation from God.

i am not sure how closely you "transcribed" the Pastor's sermon, but God does not--and will not--"make" anyone change their beliefs. What He does is facilitate change when He sees, by reading the heart, that the person desires and is ready to change from unbelief to acceptance.

When we pray for a person's salvation--i.e., knowledge and acceptance of God and His will for us--God answers by quickening impulses already existing in the person's heart and leading them to salvation by giving them the support, understanding, and power to follow those God-seeking impulses into the light of His Kingdom.

This is the process God used with me in response to the fervent prayers of my mother and my wife. i was not "made" to accept God; i was merely nudged in the right direction based on the condition of my heart to accept and the prayers of my loved ones that i do so.

In other words, God is a FACILITATOR, not a DICTATOR!

owenlikesknowing said:

Also forgive my ignorence Ephraim but its always intrigued me, who is this abba that you talk about. I have NEVER heard anyone talk about him but you lol

Click to expand...

Then perhaps you need to spent a little more time in God's written Word to get to know Him better. Abba is an aramaic word roughly translated "Daddy" or "Papa" used by Jesus to address His heavenly Father. (See Mark 14:36; Romans 8:15; and Galatians 4:6) It illustrates what our feelings toward God should be--seeing Him as our beloved "Daddy" rather than as a fearful heavenly dictator and judge. (If you would like to be exposed to this concept in more detail, read ABBA'S CHILD by Brennan Manning. Also, check out a FREE download of Wayne Jacobsen's wonderful book HE LOVES ME at

Wayne Jacobsen's Books: He Loves Me

Just click on the "Free, 1st Edition" button on the lower left.)

As always, the best to you on your journey--"SEEK AND YOU WILL FIND; KNOCK AND THE DOOR WILL BE OPENED!"

ABBA'S FOOL,
ephraim