Question...

cheetsbeme71 · Oct 8, 2003

im only 18 and i need some help... my bible teacher at my school has recently convinced me that pre-destination is true. my mind is finite so i can never be sure, but right now that is what i believe. he told me we are like characters in a book; we make choices ordained by God, the author... Frodo Baggins, for example, makes choices, but they are ordained by Tolkien. but does frodo then really make choices??? we cant make any choices because our every breath is pre-determined. life is meaningless because we cant really do anything. these thoughts in my head right now were put there by God. how is heaven any better than hell then? i have no responsibility for my going to heaven or my going to hell becuase i have no influence in that choice. it seems that life is compleltly meaningless... why live except to hope that what i believe now is wrong. IS THIS TRUE??? IF PRE-DESTINATION IS TRUE THEN THIS MUST BE TRUE, RIGHT??? can people please answer me... i want opinions... especially those who also believe in pre-destination...

UriahOmen · Oct 8, 2003

thats a good question. do you believe god, a god of love and mercy would condemn people to eternal torment? personally i dont think so. but god knows what we are going to do, he knows we are going to sin, thats why he sent jesus, because every man sins. some of the questions must be answered yourself in your quiet time with god, people cant always reveal to you what god has to show you, you must seek the truth and you will find it. i hope i helped a little.

Lotar · Oct 9, 2003

Something from another thread.

Fiskare said:
I think you forgot one very important- and very different- view of election. That is, the Augustinian/Lutheran position, the one protestants rarely mention, unless of course they are Lutheran.

From the Statement of Faith of the Evangelical Lutheran Synod-

"7. GOD'S ELECTION OF GRACE
We confess that those in this life who, through the Gospel, have been called, enlightened,
sanctified, and preserved in the true faith, have from eternity been elected according to
God's unmerited love to this adoption as His children, and have been chosen in Christ
"before the creation of the world" to be heirs of everlasting life. Therefore Christians can
and should be sure of their salvation, since God's promise is steadfast and His gracious
election to salvation stands firm. We reject the teaching that there is an eternal election to
damnation (double predestination) and that the offer of salvation which God makes
through the Gospel is not earnestly intended for all people. In faith we accept the teaching
of Scripture that those who are saved are saved by the grace of God alone, and that those
who are lost are lost because of their own unbelief and hardness of heart. See Rom. 8:26-
39, Eph. 1:3-6, 2 Thes. 2:13-14, 1 Tim. 1:15, 2 Tim. 1:12, Ezek. 33:11, Hos. 13"

A lutheran response to Arminianism

eldermike · Oct 9, 2003

im only 18 and i need some help... my bible teacher at my school has recently convinced me that pre-destination is true. my mind is finite so i can never be sure, but right now that is what i believe. he told me we are like characters in a book; we make choices ordained by God, the author... Frodo Baggins, for example, makes choices, but they are ordained by Tolkien. but does frodo then really make choices??? we cant make any choices because our every breath is pre-determined. life is meaningless because we cant really do anything. these thoughts in my head right now were put there by God. how is heaven any better than hell then? i have no responsibility for my going to heaven or my going to hell becuase i have no influence in that choice. it seems that life is compleltly meaningless... why live except to hope that what i believe now is wrong. IS THIS TRUE??? IF PRE-DESTINATION IS TRUE THEN THIS MUST BE TRUE, RIGHT??? can people please answer me... i want opinions... especially those who also believe in pre-destination...

I hope you have misunderstood your teachers. I say this because you have taken "election" into places it dosn't belong. The bible teaches us that "the ways of a good man are a delight to the Lord". Man has "ways", you are not a puppet on a string. I believe in "election" but I can't exist in the future so I refuse to let myself dwell on the concept of pre-destination.
You have to make choices, make good ones!
Also, life has meaning, God created it, how could it be otherwise?
Eldermike

Ken · Oct 9, 2003

hi cheets....

when you ask if people "believe in predestination" you are asking a question that people could answer in the affirmative, and yet, still mean ideas that are very different from one another, even contradictory..... what it seems you are asking is whether or not the Bible teaches individual election unto salvation, this as opposed to persons who say that God's election consists of God looking down the portals of time, seeing who believes, and then electing them, or as opposed to persons who believe in what is called "Corporate Election" where they believe that the Church is the elect Bride of Christ, and that Christ is the Elect Man, and those who are therefore in Christ, are those who are the elect...... I happen to believe the Bible teaches individual election and individual responsibility because I think the Bible teaches both concepts.......

Also, I want you to know that you are asking a valid question, but also realize that you are not he first to struggle with this issue, so rather than explaining or defending this view myself, please take some time to read a few articles in the following links from some great men of God far more learned that I:

and entire online book is available to you which deals with the issues surrounding Predestination, and has answers to common objections and questions;
http://www.ccel.org/b/boettner/predest/default.htm

some articles:

http://www.modernreformation.org/mr98/novdec/mr9806argument.html

http://users.rcn.com/tlclcms/trelect.html

http://public.csusm.edu/public/guests/rsclark/predestination.htm

http://www.modernreformation.org/mr92/mayjun/mr9203whosaves.html

http://homepage.mac.com/shanerosenthal/reformationink/bbwpredest.htm

Blessings

Inkasnana · Oct 9, 2003

cheetsbeme, You do have a choice. God gave man free will to make his own decisions in life. Man chooses freely on his own whether to follow God or turn his back on Him. God loves all of us, but He wants us to come to Him of our own free will and because we choose to. He offers a joyful eternity in Heaven with Him to those who simply accept his gift of life, but He also promises an eternity of torment and darkness in Hell to those who choose to reject Him.

cheetsbeme71 · Oct 9, 2003

i cant get past the idea that my thoughts are not my own... my mind is not my own becuase everything i think was put there by God. if pre-destination is true in that our salvation is pre-determined (whcih romans 8:29-30 supports) and those who are not saved are pre-destined to hell, then how can that pre-destination stop there. God must have decided our every move and thought before we were created. im only really restating what i said above to try to make my thoughts more clear.

Ken · Oct 9, 2003

(Prov 16:9 NASB) The mind of man plans his way, But the LORD directs his steps.

(Prov 20:24 NASB) Man's steps are ordained by the LORD, How then can man understand his way?

(Prov 21:1 NASB) The king's heart is like channels of water in the hand of the LORD; He turns it wherever He wishes.

Yet.....

(Prov 20:5 NASB) A plan in the heart of a man is like deep water, But a man of understanding draws it out.

(Prov 6:6 NIV) Go to the ant, you sluggard; consider its ways and be wise!

We think our thoughts, they are our thoughts, yet God is sovereign over eveything, including our thoughts.....

Westminster puts it like this:
I. God, from all eternity, did, by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely, and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass:[1] yet so, as thereby neither is God the author of sin,[2] nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures; nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established.[3]
1. Psa. 33:11: Eph. 1:11: Heb. 6:17
2. Psa. 5:4; James 1:13-14; I John 1:5; see Hab. 1:13
3. Acts 2:23; 4:27-28: Matt. 17:12; John 19:11; Prov. 16:33

Let me close with these words, again from Westminster:

VIII. The doctrine of this high mystery of predestination is to be handled with special prudence and care,[18] that men, attending the will of God revealed in his Word, and yielding obedience thereunto, may, from the certainty of their effectual vocation, be assured of their eternal election.[19] So shall this doctrine afford matter of praise, reverence, and admiration of God;[20] and of humility, diligence, and abundant consolation to all that sincerely obey the gospel.[21]
18. Rom. 9:20; 11:33; Deut. 29:29
19. II Peter 1:10; I Thess. 1:4-5
20. Eph. 1:6; see Rom. 11:33
21. Rom. 8:33; 11:5-6, 20; Luke 10:20; see II Peter 1:10

Grace_Alone4gives · Oct 11, 2003

cheetsbeme71 said:
i cant get past the idea that my thoughts are not my own... my mind is not my own becuase everything i think was put there by God. if pre-destination is true in that our salvation is pre-determined (whcih romans 8:29-30 supports) and those who are not saved are pre-destined to hell, then how can that pre-destination stop there. God must have decided our every move and thought before we were created. im only really restating what i said above to try to make my thoughts more clear.

I came very close to being what is commonly known today as a "Calvinist". However, thoughts such as the ones you are having is the danger with Calvinism. I have given it a ton of thought, prayer and study - and have concluded that I am somewhere inbetween.

HOWEVER - let me not give a true Calvinist a bad name. They do believe in election and predestination - however, it is not exactly as you described - and I do believe you have confused some of what you have been taught by this bible teacher of yours.

Your thoughts are your own...the Bible teaches that. Also, Calvinists do not believe you have no choice in anything - just that your choices are decided upon who you serve...Christ - or the world. I'm not really explaining myself properly - but I am sure there will be some true Calvinists who can help you during this struggle, especially since you seem to be leaning towards the Calvinist train of thought. Reformationalist and Gabriel are awesome at answering questions.

I can not be of further help as, like I said earlier, am inbetween in my theology - I can not be labled as eother a Calvninst or Arminian.

After typing this I am realizing that perhaps you know not of these terms. So to clarify...

Calvinism: Theology based on Predestination and the Doctrins of Grace. Total Depravity, Unconditional election, Limited Attonement, Irresitable Grace, Perseverance of the Saints.
Arminanism: Theology based on Free will and acceptance of Grace. Depravity (but not completely), Gods forknowledge of His elect based on the acceptance of his attonement for ALL, Ability to deny Gods gift, and ability to lose ones salvation.

I am inbetween. For one, I do not believe in limited attonement, but I also do not believe one can lose their salvation.

Sorry to confuse you further.

Godzman · Oct 11, 2003

God knows but he doesn't decide we do

rich · Oct 17, 2003

God gives choices, the Bible says that He does not wish that any man perish in Peter, so why would God create people for the sole purpose of not allowing them access into heaven so they can go directly to hell?

SavedByGrace3 · Oct 18, 2003

cheetsbeme71 said:
IS THIS TRUE??? IF PRE-DESTINATION IS TRUE THEN THIS MUST BE TRUE, RIGHT??? can people please answer me... i want opinions... especially those who also believe in pre-destination...

What you describe is an extream version of "predestination" that would include things like God causing people to sin, God killing babies by the millions, and God creating people for the sole purpose of sending them to etenal torment in hell. It tosses free will out the window and turns the whole thing into a puppet show.
At some point you are just going to have to have faith... that means:

Heb 11
6 No one can please God without faith. Whoever goes to God must believe that God exists and that he rewards those who seek him.

He is a rewarder... you must believe this to please God. The doctrine you describe does not allow for this. If you were predestined for hell, you could not believe this verse... If you seek Him, He is not going to change His mind about this and say "nope, you're destined for the fry pan... no soup for you." Those who hold to this doctrine are just trying to put God in a box. They want to quantify and qualify Him with a paradox of words. This is what happens when you try to describe infintity with words.

Don't worry about it. Trust Him.

Fiskare · Oct 18, 2003

rich said:
God gives choices, the Bible says that He does not wish that any man perish in Peter, so why would God create people for the sole purpose of not allowing them access into heaven so they can go directly to hell?

It's a mystery Rich. God has chosen His elect from eternity, and yet He wills that none should perish. Any attempt to say more than that can lead to all kinds of errors.

Fiat · Oct 18, 2003

Jesus died for ALL.

Fiskare · Oct 19, 2003

I find this comment from Augustine in his Hypognosticon, Book III, quite useful on this topic:

"We grant that all men have a free will, free, inasmuch as it has the judgment of reason; not that it is thereby capable, without God, either to begin, or, at least, to complete aught in things pertaining to God, but only in works of this life, whether good or evil. "Good" I call those works which spring from the good in nature, such as, willing to labor in the field, to eat and drink, to have a friend, to clothe oneself, to build a house, to marry a wife, to raise cattle, to learn divers useful arts, or whatsoever good pertains to this life. For all of these things are not without dependence on the providence of God; yea, of Him and through Him they are and have their being. "Evil" I call such works as willing to worship an idol, to commit murder, etc."

So, I guess you could summarize it and say that God gives us free will over the things in our lives, but not in the things pertaining to Him. As He is sovereign over all things, He in His love for us allows us to have free will over the things He grants us authority over, but not over everything.

truthstudent · Oct 23, 2003

That is such a good question. Let me see if I can give you an analogy..I have a son who has a sweet-tooth; if I put a cookie and a piece of celery in front of him, I know which he will choose because he is my child and I know him so well. Even though I KNOW he will choose the cookie, the choice is still his.If I have many pieces of celery on the table, and only a few cookies, I may choose to call the children whom I know will prefer the celery. You could say I "pre-destined" those children to come to my table, but you might better say that I chose to call the kids that I foreknew would prefer celery.....Does this make any sense? It is true that the Lord knows the choices we will make, but we still have free will.

Pink Angel · Oct 24, 2003

he told me we are like characters in a book; we make choices ordained by God, the author... Frodo Baggins, for example, makes choices, but they are ordained by Tolkien. but does frodo then really make choices??? we cant make any choices because our every breath is pre-determined. life is meaningless because we cant really do anything.

in my english we have been learning about the Anglo-Saxons. It is said the Anglo-Saxons pretty much beleived that theory. They beleive everything happens by fate and that they are just puppets. There is no reasoning to what happens. I am afraid I dont know what encouraged your Bible teacher to say that. But I know as a Baptist and actually ANY form of Christianity that pre-determination is false. It is generally not acceptable in the teachings. Hope I have helped somehow=)

-Pink Angel

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