Question

Dream · Jan 9, 2005

When we die, do you think God will say to us: "I'm proud of you. By paying your taxes, you gave food to the hungry, clothed the naked, gave aid to the homeless, financially supported the unemployed, and cured the sick."?

Also, do you think God would say to us: "I'm not pleased. By paying your taxes, you provided abortions, payed for an unjust war, bought weapons that killed millions, sent many innocent people to jail, and payed so hate groups could use my name in vain."?

Do we have any responsibility where our government gives it's money to? Will we be judged by how bueracrats use our hard earned income?

Paul S · Jan 9, 2005

I do think we have a responsibility to vote in accordance with the Catholic faith, but I don't think we really control how the government spends our money.

Maybe one way around some of it is to give as much as we can to the Church and other charities, and take the tax deduction so less goes for immoral government programs.

Dream · Jan 9, 2005

Paul S said:
I do think we have a responsibility to vote in accordance with the Catholic faith, but I don't think we really control how the government spends our money.

Maybe one way around some of it is to give as much as we can to the Church and other charities, and take the tax deduction so less goes for immoral government programs.

So who gets punished/rewarded for where the tax dollars are spent? Only the government?

InnerPhyre · Jan 9, 2005

The lord said render unto Casear what is Casear's. We pay our taxes and do as He told us. If the government abuses their responsibilites and does evil with that money, that is on the conscience, not ours. The Romans did evil things with the tax money they took, but Jesus still told the Jews to pay the taxes. In giving the money to the government, we're only giving back what already belongs to the government.

ps139 · Jan 9, 2005

DT I don't really know the answer to your question - but I think the best advice here is follow your conscience, and know that God is perfectly just.

Some words from St. Paul may be of help:
[bible]Romans 12:17-19[/bible]

Dream · Jan 9, 2005

InnerPhyre said:
The lord said render unto Casear what is Casear's. We pay our taxes and do as He told us. If the government abuses their responsibilites and does evil with that money, that is on the conscience, not ours. The Romans did evil things with the tax money they took, but Jesus still told the Jews to pay the taxes. In giving the money to the government, we're only giving back what already belongs to the government.

But in the United States, we live in a democracy. (Well, actually a Republic). We, as citizens, influence where our tax dollars go.

InnerPhyre · Jan 9, 2005

DreamTheater said:
But in the United States, we live in a democracy. (Well, actually a Republic). We, as citizens, influence where our tax dollars go.

Right, and we should do our best to ensure they go to what is good and just. We must pay the taxes regardless though.

Paul S · Jan 9, 2005

DreamTheater said:
But in the United States, we live in a democracy. (Well, actually a Republic). We, as citizens, influence where our tax dollars go.

No, we don't.

We may like to think we do, and we do influence it somewhat by voting, but we, especially on an individual basis, really have very little control over the details of what Congress decides to do.

If a representative or senator votes to fund something immoral, it's on their conscience, not ours, but we would have to carefully consider whether we could continue to support him.

Dream · Jan 9, 2005

InnerPhyre said:
Right, and we should do our best to ensure they go to what is good and just. We must pay the taxes regardless though.

Ok, so do think we would be rewarded for voting for a politician that uses our tax money to educate women to alternatives for abortion?

InnerPhyre · Jan 9, 2005

Yes. I was just about to say that we have a greater responsibility to vote for worthy politicians than we do to worry about our taxes.

Dream · Jan 9, 2005

InnerPhyre said:
Yes. I was just about to say that we have a greater responsibility to vote for worthy politicians than we do to worry about our taxes.

Now say that same politician also used our tax money to support an unjust war. Would we be punished for that?

InnerPhyre · Jan 9, 2005

I don't really think it's an issue that's that black and white. There are no perfect politicians and frankly, we sometimes have to choose between the one who will do the least damage. In my opinion, that is what we were faced with in the last presidential election. I voted for Bush. I wish I didn't have to, but I felt he would do less damage than Kerry. Every time I turn on the news, I wonder if I'll be judged for casting that vote, but I know I'd feel the same way if I voted for Kerry. I suppose I voted for the man who would kill a few thousand adults, many of whom would like to kill me, over the man who would kill many thousand innocent unborn children. What wonderful times we live in, no?

Dream · Jan 9, 2005

InnerPhyre said:
I don't really think it's an issue that's that black and white. There are no perfect politicians and frankly, we sometimes have to choose between the one who will do the least damage. In my opinion, that is what we were faced with in the last presidential election. I voted for Bush. I wish I didn't have to, but I felt he would do less damage than Kerry. Every time I turn on the news, I wonder if I'll be judged for casting that vote, but I know I'd feel the same way if I voted for Kerry. I suppose I voted for the man who would kill a few thousand adults, many of whom would like to kill me, over the man who would kill many thousand innocent unborn children. What wonderful times we live in, no?

Now this is more of what I was getting at with my original post. You said you think we will be rewarded for voting for a politician that does good with our money. But what happens when that same politician uses that money to do an evil deed? I just don't see how it can be a win-win situation for us: we are rewarded when our tax money is used to do good, but when our tax money is used to do evil, it simply wasn't our fault. It was the politicians fault, who we voted for.

I, too, voted for Bush, even though I was against the war in Iraq since the very beginning. I hope that I will not be judged by the actions that Bush takes and where he spends my money. But that would also have to mean that I wouldn't be rewarded when Bush uses my money to do a good deed.

InnerPhyre · Jan 9, 2005

DreamTheater said:
Now this is more of what I was getting at with my original post. You said you think we will be rewarded for voting for a politician that does good with our money. But what happens when that same politician uses that money to do an evil deed? I just don't see how it can be a win-win situation for us: we are rewarded when our tax money is used to do good, but when our tax money is used to do evil, it simply wasn't our fault. It was the politicians fault, who we voted for.

I, too, voted for Bush, even though I was against the war in Iraq since the very beginning. I hope that I will not be judged by the actions that Bush takes and where he spends my money. But that would also have to mean that I wouldn't be rewarded when Bush uses my money to do a good deed.

Well first of all, we must realize that we will not be punished for sins if we repent. If we must choose the lesser of two evils, then we have a moral obligation to do just that....choose the lesser. We are obligated to vote for someone who will do what is right, but if both politicians will do great wrong, we must vote for the one who will do the least wrong, according to our conscience. God understands that this is not a black and white matter.

Dream · Jan 9, 2005

InnerPhyre said:
Well first of all, we must realize that we will not be punished for sins if we repent.

What about temporal punishment?

If we must choose the lesser of two evils, then we have a moral obligation to do just that....choose the lesser. We are obligated to vote for someone who will do what is right, but if both politicians will do great wrong, we must vote for the one who will do the least wrong, according to our conscience. God understands that this is not a black and white matter.

So after we vote for the politician we feel would make more moral decisions, we have no further responsibilty until the next election?

InnerPhyre · Jan 9, 2005

DreamTheater said:
What about temporal punishment??

This is for unconfessed venial sin, no?

DreamTheater said:
So after we vote for the politician we feel would make more moral decisions, we have no further responsibilty until the next election?

We shouldn't sit idly by while our government does great evil. We should speak out...write our congressmen and representative....let our voices be heard, but if a politician violates his promises and does evil, that is on his or her conscience.

Dream · Jan 9, 2005

InnerPhyre said:
This is for unconfessed venial sin, no?

Temporal Punishment

That temporal punishment is due to sin, even after the sin itself has been pardoned by God, is clearly the teaching of Scripture. God indeed brought man out of his first disobedience and gave him power to govern all things (Wis. x, 2), but still condemned him "to eat his bread in the sweat of his brow" until he returned unto dust. God forgave the incredulity of Moses and Aaron, but in punishment kept them from the "land of promise" (Num., xx, 12). The Lord took away the sin of David, but the life of the child was forfeited because David had made God's enemies blaspheme His Holy Name (II Kings, xii, 13, 14). In the New Testament as well as in the Old, almsgiving and fasting, and in general penitential acts are the real fruits of repentance (Matt., iii, 8; Luke, xvii, 3; iii, 3). The whole penitential system of the Church testifies that the voluntary assumption of penitential works has always been part of true repentance and the Council of Trent (Sess. XIV, can. xi) reminds the faithful that God does not always remit the whole punishment due to sin together with the guilt. God requires satisfaction, and will punish sin, and this doctrine involves as its necessary consequence a belief that the sinner failing to do penance in this life may be punished in another world, and so not be cast off eternally from God.

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12575a.htm

Somebody please correct me if I am reading this wrong.

We shouldn't sit idly by while our government does great evil. We should speak out...write our congressmen and representative....let our voices be heard, but if a politician violates his promises and does evil, that is on his or her conscience.

Yea, you're right. There defintely is quite a gray area.

InnerPhyre · Jan 10, 2005

DreamTheater said:
Temporal Punishment

That temporal punishment is due to sin, even after the sin itself has been pardoned by God, is clearly the teaching of Scripture. God indeed brought man out of his first disobedience and gave him power to govern all things (Wis. x, 2), but still condemned him "to eat his bread in the sweat of his brow" until he returned unto dust. God forgave the incredulity of Moses and Aaron, but in punishment kept them from the "land of promise" (Num., xx, 12). The Lord took away the sin of David, but the life of the child was forfeited because David had made God's enemies blaspheme His Holy Name (II Kings, xii, 13, 14). In the New Testament as well as in the Old, almsgiving and fasting, and in general penitential acts are the real fruits of repentance (Matt., iii, 8; Luke, xvii, 3; iii, 3). The whole penitential system of the Church testifies that the voluntary assumption of penitential works has always been part of true repentance and the Council of Trent (Sess. XIV, can. xi) reminds the faithful that God does not always remit the whole punishment due to sin together with the guilt. God requires satisfaction, and will punish sin, and this doctrine involves as its necessary consequence a belief that the sinner failing to do penance in this life may be punished in another world, and so not be cast off eternally from God.

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12575a.htm

.

Hmm. Point taken. Still, I think that the matter of voting falls upon that which violates our conscience, since it's such a mirky grey area.

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