Question for you in LCMS...

DaRev said:

Don't the Baptists require one to "choose" to "accept" Jesus? Don't they have to decide to be baptized? The one's I know do.

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I am confused... isn't that what "free will" is all about? We all have to make the choice, right?

What am I missing?

vle045 said:

I am confused... isn't that what "free will" is all about? We all have to make the choice, right?

What am I missing?

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Mankind has no "free will" in spiritual matters. We are all born sinful and in a state of rebellion against God. If it were left to us, we would all reject God and His gift of salvation.

We do not choose God because our sinful nature prevents us from being able to choose Him. Like Jesus said, "You did not choose Me, I chose you."

We can do nothing toward our salvation. It has all been done by God through Christ. It is for us only to believe, and even our belief is given to us by God.

Since our sinful nature prevents us from "choosing' or "accepting" Christ, God has given Him to us as a gift as well as the gift of faith in order to believe. The only "choice" we have is to reject His gifts, to not believe.

Our salvation and faith in Christ is totally the work of God done to us and for us. Our damnation is totally our own work.

I just read the Sticky this morning.
Being away for some time I had an incorrect impression I could present my points here in a form of a question.
I do not know where I got this idea from.
Maybe from a gameshow.

It flatly states I cannot debate here.

Sorry about that.
I'll stop.

Ed

DaRev said:

Mankind has no "free will" in spiritual matters. We are all born sinful and in a state of rebellion against God. If it were left to us, we would all reject God and His gift of salvation.

We do not choose God because our sinful nature prevents us from being able to choose Him. Like Jesus said, "You did not choose Me, I chose you."

We can do nothing toward our salvation. It has all been done by God through Christ. It is for us only to believe, and even our belief is given to us by God.

Since our sinful nature prevents us from "choosing' or "accepting" Christ, God has given Him to us as a gift as well as the gift of faith in order to believe. The only "choice" we have is to reject His gifts, to not believe.

Our salvation and faith in Christ is totally the work of God done to us and for us. Our damnation is totally our own work.

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So then what you are saying here is that we do nothing in regards to our salvation, it is all done by God? And that people coming into the fold of the church is just them answering the call that was there all along, just they had ignored it?

zerocipher said:

So then what you are saying here is that we do nothing in regards to our salvation, it is all done by God? And that people coming into the fold of the church is just them answering the call that was there all along, just they had ignored it?

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We contribute nothing to our salvation. It is totally and wholly God's doing.

As St. Paul writes, "Faith comes by hearing." It's not that they ignored it, it's that they hadn't yet heard it. "How can they believe in One of whom they have never heard?"

It's like if you buy a Christmas gift for someone. Before you give it to them, while it's still in your possession, who does it belong to? It belongs to the person you bought it for, they are just not aware of it until you present it to them.
The gift of our salvation is like this. Jesus paid for it. It belongs to us all. But there is a point where this gift is presented to us through the proclamation of the Gospel. Some of us grow up hearing and knowing that this gift is ours. Others do not hear the Gospel, do not have this gift presented to them, until later in life. But the fact remains, it belongs to all because Christ died for all, even though there are still many who don't know it yet because they haven't been presented with it yet.

The preaching of the Gospel, along with the Sacraments of baptism and the Lord's Supper, are the means by which the Spirit enlightens us with His gift of faith.

DaRev said:

Mankind has no "free will" in spiritual matters. We are all born sinful and in a state of rebellion against God. If it were left to us, we would all reject God and His gift of salvation.

We do not choose God because our sinful nature prevents us from being able to choose Him. Like Jesus said, "You did not choose Me, I chose you."

We can do nothing toward our salvation. It has all been done by God through Christ. It is for us only to believe, and even our belief is given to us by God.

Since our sinful nature prevents us from "choosing' or "accepting" Christ, God has given Him to us as a gift as well as the gift of faith in order to believe. The only "choice" we have is to reject His gifts, to not believe.

Our salvation and faith in Christ is totally the work of God done to us and for us. Our damnation is totally our own work.

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Sorry Rev, but I disagree (somewhat). Man has a kind of 1/2 free will. We certainly have no ability to choose or accept Christ. We do however have "free will" to reject Christ, and defy God. This is the same "free will" that ended up with Lucifer and his followers getting booted out of Heaven. It is also the same free will that got Adam and Eve (and the rest of us) into trouble.

If man's fallen tendency is to "reject", then the will is not free, is it?

LilLamb219 said:

If man's fallen tendency is to "reject", then the will is not free, is it?

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I understand your point, but when one is in a state of grace does it not take a conscious sinful act of defiance to fall from grace? Otherwise we would not be able to fall. I do pray that this ability to defy God is shed along with our mortal bodies before we get to Heaven.

We have no "free will" in spiritual matters. Our will is bound to our sinful nature. Read Luther's "On the Bondage of the Will."