Question about Penalty for Sins?

razeontherock · Jul 13, 2011

inspector-gadget said:
Ah on that way, so when someone sins then he must get a spiritually death, but why you believe teach that Jesus get a real death.. physically. Then it has nothing to do with the thing about that if someone sin that he must die or? It seems to me two different things then?

I would encourage you to read the book of Galatians, as it addresses this. In short, our spiritual death is repentance. Yet the paradox is this cannot be done w/o new life, only available through Christ, which is why we hold Him to be central. Jesus never taught the separation of physical from spiritual, only their connectedness.

razeontherock · Jul 13, 2011

inspector-gadget said:
What is the meaning of "Death" in the verses. Is there after Jesus still the rule that the one who sin shall die? I want to know clear of this something has to do with the crucifixion/death of Jesus where you christians believe in?

Yes.

As to your first question in this quote, we have the concept of our sins being "washed in His blood," as an important element.

razeontherock · Jul 13, 2011

inspector-gadget said:
so the verse that the one who sin shall die, still exists right? anyway it has nothing to do with the "Death of Jesus",

We need you to clarify what you are asking here. Jesus certainly died because of this spiritual law of sin and death, but you are getting at more than that here, right?

inspector-gadget · Jul 13, 2011

Thanks elman,

I don't know of my believe teach the same as you believe teach,
i believe that our deeds will be weighed and that the people will be devided into three categories on the Day of Resurrection. Some will on the right of Allah's Throne, and they are those who were brought forth from `Adam's right side. This category will be given their Books of Records in their right hand and will be taken to the right side. Another category is those who will be placed to the left of Allah's Throne, and they are those who were brought forth from `Adam's left side. This category will be given their Books of Records in their left hands and will be taken to the left side. They are the residents of the Fire. A third category is comprised of those who are the foremost and nearest before Allah. They are in a better grade and status and nearer to Allah than those on the right side. They are the chiefs of those on the right side, because they include the Messengers, Prophets, true believers and martyrs.

When Judgement day comes, our deeds are going to be weighed. There is a lot going to happen after we die and judgement day come. We believe that the non-believers are going to the hell, and that Muslims, some get a light punishment the other ones goes directly to heaven, it is up to youre deeds.. The people before the last prophet Mohamed peace be upon him the truly believers can also go to heaven. Who believe in the oneness of God and follow the prophet of that time.

Ok this was in a little about Judgement Day, cause i don't know of it's aloud to talk about Islaam here, and in our believe there is a lot information over the herafter paradise, hell and judgment day and things like that.

I don't know of Christianity also teach a lot about Judgement day but there are things that are simular, like the books and the people of the right and left site.

So what my destiny is, i hope directly to go to heaven we can only go to heaven with the mercy of the creator. : ) And we pray for his Mercy and that we go to heaven without punishment. I hope my good deeds are more then the bad ones

Bible Psalm 62:12 Also unto thee, O Lord, belongeth mercy: for thou renderest to every man according to his work.

elman said:
God does not change. He is the same now and forever. What do you believe about your destiny after you die?

inspector-gadget · Jul 13, 2011

Oke but i mean now, the one who sin shall die? Is this still right now?

Ok i find it difficult to understand, i'm sorry.

razeontherock said:
Yes.

As to your first question in this quote, we have the concept of our sins being "washed in His blood," as an important element.

razeontherock · Jul 13, 2011

inspector-gadget said:
Oke but i mean now, the one who sin shall die? Is this still right now?

Ok i find it difficult to understand, i'm sorry.

Don't be sorry! I imagine Christianity must be especially hard for someone of a Muslim background to understand.

We can compare this to physical laws. There is a law of gravity, that says an airplane should fall. There is the law of lift, that says an airplane should fly. Likewise, the Grace of our Lord Jesus Christ is a higher law than the law of sin and death. Does that help?

inspector-gadget · Jul 13, 2011

not really razeonthecrock, look let me explain it good what my question exactly is.

I was wondering if that law that "the one who sin shall die", is deleted with "the death of Jesus", in every way.

So what i mean i was thinking if you guys maybe believe that Jesus must die because of that, that law goes away, that after his death there is not anymore something like "die for sins" in every way.. but see I this correct or not, or is that not one of the reasons, and is my thinking about how you see that, wrong?

razeontherock said:
Don't be sorry! I imagine Christianity must be especially hard for someone of a Muslim background to understand.

We can compare this to physical laws. There is a law of gravity, that says an airplane should fall. There is the law of lift, that says an airplane should fly. Likewise, the Grace of our Lord Jesus Christ is a higher law than the law of sin and death. Does that help?

razeontherock · Jul 13, 2011

inspector-gadget said:
I was wondering if that law that "the one who sin shall die", is deleted with "the death of Jesus", in every way.

Not in every way, no. For those not "in Christ," the law of sin and death is not affected. (As I see it) "In Christ," everything changes! As it is written, old things pass away, and all things are made new.

It then becomes very important to know what is meant by "in Christ!" One such understanding is depicted in Moses' Tabernacle in the desert, after Israel got out of Egypt. That is very detailed and complex, but more simple is to believe and be Baptized.

inspector-gadget said:
So what i mean i was thinking if you guys maybe believe that Jesus must die because of that, that law goes away, that after his death there is not anymore something like "die for sins" in every way..

Yes, in Christ all this is true, and we have a new law. The perfect law of liberty, the law of Life in Christ Jesus. These are not even Judged in the same way at the Last Day, so no good works vs bad works, but have their names written in "the Lamb's book of Life." Old things are passed away!

bling · Jul 14, 2011

inspector-gadget said:
Thanks elman,

I don't know of my believe teach the same as you believe teach,
i believe that our deeds will be weighed and that the people will be devided into three categories on the Day of Resurrection. Some will on the right of Allah's Throne, and they are those who were brought forth from `Adam's right side. This category will be given their Books of Records in their right hand and will be taken to the right side. Another category is those who will be placed to the left of Allah's Throne, and they are those who were brought forth from `Adam's left side. This category will be given their Books of Records in their left hands and will be taken to the left side. They are the residents of the Fire. A third category is comprised of those who are the foremost and nearest before Allah. They are in a better grade and status and nearer to Allah than those on the right side. They are the chiefs of those on the right side, because they include the Messengers, Prophets, true believers and martyrs.

When Judgement day comes, our deeds are going to be weighed. There is a lot going to happen after we die and judgement day come. We believe that the non-believers are going to the hell, and that Muslims, some get a light punishment the other ones goes directly to heaven, it is up to youre deeds.. The people before the last prophet Mohamed peace be upon him the truly believers can also go to heaven. Who believe in the oneness of God and follow the prophet of that time.

Ok this was in a little about Judgement Day, cause i don't know of it's aloud to talk about Islaam here, and in our believe there is a lot information over the herafter paradise, hell and judgment day and things like that.

I don't know of Christianity also teach a lot about Judgement day but there are things that are simular, like the books and the people of the right and left site.

So what my destiny is, i hope directly to go to heaven we can only go to heaven with the mercy of the creator. : ) And we pray for his Mercy and that we go to heaven without punishment. I hope my good deeds are more then the bad ones

Bible Psalm 62:12 Also unto thee, O Lord, belongeth mercy: for thou renderest to every man according to his work.

I have heard this before and Christianity is much different:

1. True Christians are not trying to do good stuff to outweigh the bad stuff they have done in the past.

2. Christians have been given a birthright that includes eternal life in heaven as soon as they accept the gift (Godly type Love) from God. This acceptance is done through trusting in a benevolent Creator to the point of humbly accepting His Charity as Charity (it cannot be thought of as being deserved in any way, and/or something you earned even a part of and/or something you are going to pay at least part of it back). This gift is huge (way beyond anything we can do) and enables Christians to become like God himself (God is Love), which is also like Christ was/is here on earth.

3. Since this is a birthright no one can take it away and even God said He will not take it away, but will protect us from those that will try to take it away. The problem is since this gift is truly our possession (like Esau) we can sell it or give it away.

4. Christians do not do good stuff to get anything in this life or the next, but they do good stuff because of what has been done for them already. God provides Christians with tons of opportunities to do good stuff and it is both a privilege and honor to do good stuff and allow Gods Spirit to work through us doing good and having your Love grow with use.

5. A Christian that does not do good stuff will wither; lose interest in the gift, see the gift as worthless and eventual give the gift up. Love grows with use, but not using the Godly type Love given and seeking after selfish type love will cause distain for selfless type Love (Godly Love). Doing good stuff will help us to want to keep what we have been given already.

6. The Judgment Day is not a trial, but more an award assembly where you receive the results of your life. There are degrees of punishment and sinners do not have eternal life but all will eventually be consumed in the fire. Those going to heaven have only the difference in the amount of Godly type Love (but that is nothing to feel you are not equal). Think of it like The apostle Paul with great Love will Love you more than you can Love Him back so who is worse off?

elman · Jul 14, 2011

inspector-gadget said:
Thanks elman,

I don't know of my believe teach the same as you believe teach,
i believe that our deeds will be weighed and that the people will be devided into three categories on the Day of Resurrection. Some will on the right of Allah's Throne, and they are those who were brought forth from `Adam's right side. This category will be given their Books of Records in their right hand and will be taken to the right side. Another category is those who will be placed to the left of Allah's Throne, and they are those who were brought forth from `Adam's left side. This category will be given their Books of Records in their left hands and will be taken to the left side. They are the residents of the Fire. A third category is comprised of those who are the foremost and nearest before Allah. They are in a better grade and status and nearer to Allah than those on the right side. They are the chiefs of those on the right side, because they include the Messengers, Prophets, true believers and martyrs.

When Judgement day comes, our deeds are going to be weighed. There is a lot going to happen after we die and judgement day come. We believe that the non-believers are going to the hell, and that Muslims, some get a light punishment the other ones goes directly to heaven, it is up to youre deeds.. The people before the last prophet Mohamed peace be upon him the truly believers can also go to heaven. Who believe in the oneness of God and follow the prophet of that time.

Ok this was in a little about Judgement Day, cause i don't know of it's aloud to talk about Islaam here, and in our believe there is a lot information over the herafter paradise, hell and judgment day and things like that.

I don't know of Christianity also teach a lot about Judgement day but there are things that are simular, like the books and the people of the right and left site.

So what my destiny is, i hope directly to go to heaven we can only go to heaven with the mercy of the creator. : ) And we pray for his Mercy and that we go to heaven without punishment. I hope my good deeds are more then the bad ones

Bible Psalm 62:12 Also unto thee, O Lord, belongeth mercy: for thou renderest to every man according to his work.

Thank you for that explanation. I believe similar to you in some ways; but I do not believe anyone will burn in fire after we die. I don't think spiritual death is suffering. I believe it is simply not existing.

inspector-gadget · Jul 14, 2011

I was thinking about what you say. Look God said in the old-testament that on Jugdement day, the people are going to be Judged by the deeds, the work they did. So God speaks about what's to come in the future. And then in the new-testament is writing,on judgement day you don't get judged by youre deeds, how is this possible then razeontherock?

But thanks anyway for the answers.

razeontherock said:
Not in every way, no. For those not "in Christ," the law of sin and death is not affected. (As I see it) "In Christ," everything changes! As it is written, old things pass away, and all things are made new.

It then becomes very important to know what is meant by "in Christ!" One such understanding is depicted in Moses' Tabernacle in the desert, after Israel got out of Egypt. That is very detailed and complex, but more simple is to believe and be Baptized.

Yes, in Christ all this is true, and we have a new law. The perfect law of liberty, the law of Life in Christ Jesus. These are not even Judged in the same way at the Last Day, so no good works vs bad works, but have their names written in "the Lamb's book of Life." Old things are passed away!

inspector-gadget · Jul 14, 2011

Oh really, but what i know Christians do believe in the hell right.. this opinion what you have seems to me like the opinion of the Jehovah-witnesses? Cause they also don't believe in Punishment and believe that the punishment is simply not existing, death. How this come? Maybe i misunderstood you but youre view seems to me not like the view of Christianity? Bible speeks also about hell-fire right?

elman said:
Thank you for that explanation. I believe similar to you in some ways; but I do not believe anyone will burn in fire after we die. I don't think spiritual death is suffering. I believe it is simply not existing.

s_s · Jul 14, 2011

elman said:
Thank you for that explanation. I believe similar to you in some ways; but I do not believe anyone will burn in fire after we die. I don't think spiritual death is suffering. I believe it is simply not existing.

inspector-gadget said:
Oh really, but what i know Christians do believe in the hell right.. this opinion what you have seems to me like the opinion of the Jehovah-witnesses? Cause they also don't believe in Punishment and believe that the punishment is simply not existing, death. How this come? Maybe i misunderstood you but youre view seems to me not like the view of Christianity? Bible speeks also about hell-fire right?

You're right - it isn't a belief based on what the Bible says, and is different to what most Christians believe.

inspector-gadget said:
I was thinking about what you say. Look God said in the old-testament that on Jugdement day, the people are going to be Judged by the deeds, the work they did. So God speaks about what's to come in the future. And then in the new-testament is writing,on judgement day you don't get judged by youre deeds, how is this possible then razeontherock?

But thanks anyway for the answers.

There is a judgement made on your works, yes, but that is just for your rewards for what you have done with your Christian life. James chapter 2 and especially this verse relate to that:
James 2:20
But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

Which means that after you are a Christian, if you do not do good things, you are lying about it. So God will judge to make sure you did good things and were not lying.
But to get salvation, and to get into heaven, you do not have to do just good things - you just have to believe, and be saved.
So you do not get judged on your deeds to get into heaven, you must accept Jesus as your saviour, but you get judged (or better to say "examined") to make sure you really mean it. Does that make sense?

razeontherock · Jul 15, 2011

inspector-gadget said:
And then in the new-testament is writing,on judgement day you don't get judged by youre deeds, how is this possible then razeontherock?

You are looking at a basic difference between our Faiths. Your's says good vs bad gets weighed like in a scale. Our sins are removed, as far as the east is from the west. Next step for us as for Judgment, His reward is with Him!

"And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward [is] with me, to give every man according as his work shall be." (Rev 22:12)

"And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is [the book] of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. (Rev 20:13) And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire."

So you see, the dead are Judged here. What about those who's names are written in the book of life? They are not dead but alive, the second death has no power over them, and they aren't cast into the lake of fire.

Emmy · Jul 15, 2011

Dear inspector-gadget. Until Jesus came it was " a tooth for a tooth, and an eye for an eye." Then Jesus our Saviour died that we might live, He paid the debt which we could not pay, and his Blood washed all our sins away. Christians, those of us who have accepted His Sacrifice and gratefully follow Him, are trying hard Not to sin, but sadly we still do, but are trying to become more and more as God wants us to be. Our penalty for sinning is true Repentance, asking for God`s Forgiveness and following our Lord`s Commandments to love God with all our hearts, with all our souls, and with all our minds, Also: to love our neighbour as ourselves. For the World at large: Men and women will reap what they sow. That is God`s eternal Law: Rewards for doing good, and fitting consequences for those who ignore Gods Commandments. God is Love, and His Law metes out Righteous Judgments for all His children. I say this with love, inspector-gadget. Greetings from Emmy, sister in Christ.

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