Question about Mary for Pentecostals

DRobert · Dec 10, 2012

What is the Pentecostal stance on Mary? Is the Christokos(Mother Of Christ) or Theotokos(Mother of God)?

Bob Carabbio · Dec 10, 2012

"What is the Pentecostal stance on Mary?"

Ignoring the "religious terminology", Mary was a completely normal Israelite Gal, who was picked for a DIFFICULT ministry - to birth, and raise the incarnation of the "Word" as her Son, and as the Son of God. And She performed that ministry obediently, and properly from the start. At some point both her and at least Some of her and Joseph's children became Christians also.

She was NOT "Immaculately conceived", she was NOT "Sinless", she was NOT "Ever Virgin", and she was NOT "Assumed into heaven" as Rome would have us believe.

Pentecostals in general believe COMPLETELY in the Virgin Birth of Jesus, but WE DO NOT give Mary MORE "Status" than She actually possesses, and we don't give her any LESS Honor than what she deserves for a difficult, and painful job well done.

We generally consider the Roman Church's version of Mary to be a DISASTROUSLY overblown heresy that's destructive to folks who buy into it.

stormdancer0 · Dec 10, 2012

Yup. That's about it. She was exceptionally obedient, considering she was probably no older than 16 at the time.

FuegoPentecostes · Dec 10, 2012

Amen to Bob and stormdancer, not too much to add.
Mary didn't do anything amazing (and by amazing I mean miraculous/supernatural), who did all the work was the Holy Spirit. Mary was just a normal, sinful girl. Of course anyone has to admit she did have a pretty tough job!

I honestly don't even understand how the Catholic Church still gets away with the whole Mary thing, when if you actually stick your nose in a Bible you can see how just completely wrong it is . . . We all need to study the Word for ourselves and actually USE our Bibles !!!

-sigh-

jlmagee · Dec 10, 2012

DRobert said:
What is the Pentecostal stance on Mary? Is the Christokos(Mother Of Christ) or Theotokos(Mother of God)?

Theological terms can be tricky and deceiving when taken out of the context in which they are used. This is the case with theotokos. If I understand it correctly, Nestorius made a distinction between the human and divine natures. He therefore attempted to use the term christokos when referring to Mary. At the Council of Ephesus, the judgement was made that term diluted the divine nature of Jesus at His incarnation. Therefore, while the term refers to Mary, the distinction of terms has less to do with Mary and more about the incarnate deity of Christ.

Pentecostals will affirm the hypostatic union. However, many will cringe at the term mother of God/theotokos. While I have no real problem with the term, I would probably never use it due to the ambiguity some may place on the term.

Cappadocious · Dec 12, 2012

jlmagee said:
Pentecostals will affirm the hypostatic union. However, many will cringe at the term mother of God/theotokos. While I have no real problem with the term, I would probably never use it due to the ambiguity some may place on the term.

Theotokos means "God-bearer".

Miter Theou means "Mother of God".

jlmagee · Dec 12, 2012

Cappadocious said:
Theotokos means "God-bearer".

Miter Theou means "Mother of God".

You are correct that it is not an exact translation. However, it is the meaning of the term in its theological context. That is why I put the disclaimer in the first sentence. I had always heard the term mater dei until I started reading Catholic material.

Cappadocious · Dec 13, 2012

jlmagee said:
However, it is the meaning of the term in its theological context.

Not really.

Theotokos refers to the Virgin Mary containing the Subsistent Person of God in her womb, rather than merely a human nature or essence.

Miter Theou speaks to the Virgin Mary being the origin of Christ's humanity, the one by whom Christ was begotten in time by the power of the Holy Spirit, and his mother according to the flesh. It also refers to her relationship to Christ as a mother, especially because she hears the words of the Lord and keeps them in the Gospels.

jlmagee said:
While I have no real problem with the term, I would probably never use it due to the ambiguity some may place on the term.

Who places ambiguity on the term?

jlmagee · Dec 14, 2012

Cappadocious said:
Not really.

Theotokos refers to the Virgin Mary containing the Subsistent Person of God in her womb, rather than merely a human nature or essence.

Miter Theou speaks to the Virgin Mary being the origin of Christ's humanity, the one by whom Christ was begotten in time by the power of the Holy Spirit, and his mother according to the flesh. It also refers to her relationship to Christ as a mother, especially because she hears the words of the Lord and keeps them in the Gospels.

The Roman Catechism defines theotokos as Mother of God. The OP defines theotokos as Mother of God. I believe the Anglican church defines the term in the same manner. I agree, it is not a literal translation, however, as it is the way the OP used the term, it is consistent with other traditions that use the term in that manner.

Who places ambiguity on the term?

Our conversation demonstrates the ambiguity. Apparently, EO utilizes a more literal translation. I respect that. However, in addressing the OP, which is consistent with the RCC Catechism, I stated the term and translation the OP used to explain how my tradition may feel uncomfortable using Mother of God, theotokos, or miter theou for that matter. For that reason, I would not use the term in my circles because of how it may be received.

Cappadocious · Dec 14, 2012

jlmagee said:
The Roman Catechism defines theotokos as Mother of God. The OP defines theotokos as Mother of God. I believe the Anglican church defines the term in the same manner. I agree, it is not a literal translation, however, as it is the way the OP used the term, it is consistent with other traditions that use the term in that manner.

Our conversation demonstrates the ambiguity. Apparently, EO utilizes a more literal translation. I respect that.

Fair enough.

jlmagee said:
my tradition may feel uncomfortable using Mother of God, theotokos, or miter theou for that matter. For that reason, I would not use the term in my circles because of how it may be received.

Why is your tradition uncomfortable with those terms? I understand they "make people cringe" as you said above.

jlmagee · Dec 14, 2012

Cappadocious said:
Fair enough.

Thank you for your understanding.

Why is your tradition uncomfortable with those terms? I understand they "make people cringe" as you said above.

In my opinion, there is a huge misunderstanding with the position the RCC has placed on Mary (Rosary, immaculate conception, perpetual virginity, assumption). Referring to Mary in this manner can seem to give Mary an eternal position over God. As I said in my first post in response, when using theological terms, an understanding of the context is necessary.

In this case, understanding the rationale behind the terminology, it is not giving Mary an elevated position, but further establishing Jesus' full divinity while being fully man. Therefore, it is stressing the position of Jesus.

There are many misunderstandings between the different traditions simply because time is not taken to find out why one group believes one thing or why they do something else. For example, we are discussing Pentecostals feelings about a term. (I am comfortable with that.) Pentecostals are hammered on their theology/terminology all the time. We owe it to the cause of Christ to investigate the context behind a doctrine or practice before we look to criticize or divide.

Cappadocious · Dec 14, 2012

Alright, I get ya. Thanks for taking the time to answer my questions.

hopeinGod · Dec 14, 2012

This topic brought to mind the words, "Mary had a little Lamb." But it wasn't everywhere that Mary went that Christ followed. Because, when he was asked to give account as to why He separated Himself from His mother and father at the marketplace, He said, "How is it that ye sought me? wist ye not that I must be about my Father's business?"

Amazingly, they understood not the saying which He spake unto them.

Question about Mary for Pentecostals

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