• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

question about calvinism

mmreed

... by His wounds you are healed!
Feb 25, 2005
493
32
✟15,801.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Republican
I am what I consider a "new Christian"... I was born Catholic, fell away from God in my late teens and 20s... and am now working to build my relationship back with God... part of that is struggling with the various doctrines who all say thiers is the correct path...

With Calvinism, if I understand correctly, one doe not choose to be saved, God chooses you...or elects you basically... it is predetermined.

If this is true, then I have no control over my saving? It is already decided before I existed whether I would be saved nor not?

If that is true, how does this work with the idea of God giving us free will to choose Him or not?

If I want Christ in my life, and truly want to follow His Word, and want to be saved, and I take the actions of one that is saved, is this indication of me being predetermined? How does one know they are elected?

It seems to me that Calvinism does not coincide with the gift of free will to follow God or not... but yet, if God knows all, then I can understand how he knows who will and will not choose him - hence him predetermining you... so I can see both sides - which confuses me even more
 

frumanchu

God's justice does not demand second chances
Site Supporter
Apr 5, 2003
6,719
469
48
Ohio
✟85,280.00
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Libertarian

Part of the issue centers around Adam's fall and the effects it had upon the entire race. We are born into this world in a state of depravity, predisposed to sin. We are not sinners because we sin...rather we sin because we are sinners. Sin originates in the heart, and man's heart is corrupt from birth. We have free will in the sense that we have the natural (volitional) ability to choose. We choose according to our strongest desire at the moment of that choice. We do not however have liberty of will in the sense that we have the moral ability to choose good or God. Even those things which we do as unbelievers which have the outward appearance of good are not truly righteous because they are not done in faith. Man has the volitional ability to choose God, but never will choose God because his will is enslaved to his own sinful desires.

It is only by the efficacious work of the Holy Spirit upon a person that he can be turned to good and to God. The Holy Spirit graciously regenerates the heart of man, breathing new spiritual life into it and placing within it the desire for God he was completely bereft of. That desire, when mixed with the Word of God, produces faith and repentance, resulting in justification and salvation. It is a gracious act of God from start to finish.

We all stand condemned by the sinfulness of our hearts. Absolute justice would dictate that we perish, every last one of us. But God, in His fathomless mercy and love, of His own will according to His pleasure, chose from amongst the condemned a people to be the recipients of His divine grace. The Father gave these as a gift to the Son, who in turn agreed to redeem them, and the Holy Spirit agreed to apply the results of this redemption to His people, sealing them unto salvation.

If you would like a more thorough explanation of the Reformed doctrines, I would be happy to point you in the direction of some reading material
 
Reactions: Macrina
Upvote 0

Ryft

Nihil sine Deo.
Jan 6, 2004
418
95
Kelowna, BC
Visit site
✟23,578.00
Faith
Presbyterian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
CA-Conservatives
mmreed said:
With Calvinism, if I understand correctly, one doe not choose to be saved, God chooses you...or elects you basically... it is predetermined.
I would emphasize caution here over the important theological distinction between 'salvation' and 'election', to the effect that we must never conflate the two.

Concerning 'salvation' and your above statement I would say that, on the Reformed view, there is no conflict between the two ideas. In other words, both ideas are true: God chooses us, and we choose God. Salvation is a multifaceted rubric which, in at least some respects, involves interaction between God and man. The different facets of salvation are outlined under the Reformed ordo salutis (Lt. 'order of salvation'). However, although it is true that 'election' is one facet of salvation, it did not involve any interaction between God and man; 'election' is a different matter because this act took place in the divine singularity of God's eternal frame of reference, which is antecedent to and transcendent of the created order. Scriptures speak of 'election' occurring before any of the elect were born both explicitly (e.g Rom. 9:10-16) as well as implicitly, insofar as scriptures reveal election taking place before the world was even created (Eph. 1:4; 2 Tim. 1:9; Matt. 25:34 [cf. Psalm 32:1,2]; Rev. 13:8; etc.).

mmreed said:
If this is true, then I have no control over my saving? It is already decided before I existed whether I would be saved nor not?
This will be one of the most notable differences you will discover between Protestant and Roman Catholic doctrine. Reformed theology affirms and emphasizes the scriptural truth that no one has any control over their salvation -- no one can save themselves apart from God, nor can anyone coerce God into saving them against his will. Reformed theology affirms and emphasizes the sovereignty of God as ultimate and supreme over all things; his nature, his character, his will, his purposes, his decrees, every facet of God's being is sovereign, subject to nothing external to him.

And this must be so if we are to contemplate God as God, not lacking anything prior to creation; to the degree that God is subject to anything external to himself, to that degree God was incomplete prior to creation. But scriptures do not proclaim God as a contingent existent; quite to the contrary, scriptures proclaim an absolute, sovereign, necessary, complete, self-existent God, and repudiates the notion of any reality that transcends God.

All of this is to say that, if anyone is saved, it can never be said to be independent of nor contrary to God's will. Scriptures proclaim that salvation is under the jurisdiction of the sovereign and righteous God, not the jurisdiction of mortal and sinful man. If we are saved, it is because God saved us. Never should a man think that he did, or even can, save himself.

Do I have any control over my salvation? No. Did God already decide from eternity whether or not I would be saved? Yes, and could such a decision be in any better hands? Would not such a decision be better left up to sinful man? God forbid.

Do I have any part to play in my salvation? Absolutely.

mmreed said:
If that is true, how does this work with the idea of God giving us free will to choose Him or not?
Man does not have a 'free' will, and hasn't since the Garden of Eden. Man's will is subject to his nature. Surely it would be agreed that every decision of his will is a product of man's nature, every decision a concert of his desires, his passions, his intellect. But this nature is fallen. Man's will is not free, man does not have 'free' will. He does, however, have free agency, insofar as he is capable of making decisions, of making choices according to his greatest desires, but the will that directs this free agency is not itself free -- it is corrupted by sin.

mmreed said:
If I want Christ in my life, and truly want to follow His Word, and want to be saved, and I take the actions of one that is saved, is this indication of me being predetermined? How does one know they are elected?
Because election is necessarily the sole jurisdiction of God, since it took place from eternity, antecedent to creation, who is and who is not of the elect is not man's concern. It is not our jurisdiction, not under our control, not our concern. And this abdication of any concern about the identity of the elect is an expression of supreme faith and trust in the mercy, grace, and justice of God. We trust God absolutely, we praise him and give glory to him. We do not question him, we do not audit his choices, as though his purposes are subject to a higher court. And we certainly do not hold his purposes and choices accountable to man.

If you want Christ in your life, pursue him with all your heart. If you truly want to follow his Word, then seek after it like a man starving for bread. If you want to be saved, cast yourself at the feet of Lamb and cry out, "Have mercy on me, a sinner!" Pursue God through Christ Jesus our Savior like there is nothing more important in your life or all of the universe, because there really is nothing more important than that.

And trust God's choices, absolutely and completely, never thinking to question his righteousness. Trust him to have made the best decision, for he is God and God is good.
 
Upvote 0

mmreed

... by His wounds you are healed!
Feb 25, 2005
493
32
✟15,801.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Republican

Thanks for the information... it helps....yet at the same time stirs up even more questions in me

If all of this is predetermined... and God has already chosen who will be with Him, what point is there to our time here on Earth? Is it to praise and worship Him? If so, why all the sin, and evil that is allowed to exist? If everything was predetermined and arranged to have an end result of those predetermined to be with Him, why go through all the motions of living on Earth? There is so much suffering and pain in the world, that if things are predetermined, it seems unloving/unmercyful to allow such suffering to exist.

I guess one could say that all of this is neccesary for God to show us his depth of love... but if those suffering and in pain are ones that truly love God, and want to be saved, but are not one of the predetermined...it seems so unmercyful....

or is the point to live life serving God, knowing in your heart you are one of the predetermined, and trust in God to save you... and if you are truly predetermined, you will live life as you should and go to heaven... and if you are not predetermined, you will eventually fall away from God, or live a life not suited to be called Christian?

It seems as if Calvinism could instill hopelessness into those new to the faith that do not quite grasp the full beliefs..... yet, I do agree that God, being all powerful, already knows who will be saved. I guess the feelings of hopelessness is just the sinful human nature clouding my mind
 
Upvote 0

frumanchu

God's justice does not demand second chances
Site Supporter
Apr 5, 2003
6,719
469
48
Ohio
✟85,280.00
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Libertarian
mmreed said:
So We all are sinners, and have no ability to get out of that prision... we are all grouped and some of us are chosen while others are not? It seems confusing.

Our inability to get out of prison is a function of our desire to stay. Most don't see themselves as even being in prison.

I would like more reading material... thank you very much for the offer.

One place would be the Westminster Confession of Faith (1646). It is the most detailed creedal position every produced by the Reformation. It's a bit heady though, so you might want to start with a more broad outline of Calvinism, particularly the five-point acrostic TULIP.

The five points are:

Total Depravity (or Total Inability)
Unconditional Election
Limited Atonement (or Particular Atonement)
Irresistible Grace (or Efficacious Grace)
Perseverance of the Saints

Keep in mind that this is not the sum total of Reformed theology. This is merely the primary soteriological view (doctrine of salvation) and does not address issues such as the sacraments, predestination, etc. The article I linked to above will give you a bit of historical background on how the five point system came about.

By all means, I encourage you to ask as many questions as you wish. We Reformed folk would be happy to answer them!
 
Upvote 0

frumanchu

God's justice does not demand second chances
Site Supporter
Apr 5, 2003
6,719
469
48
Ohio
✟85,280.00
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Libertarian

mmreed, you are quite insightful!

The chief end of man is to glorify God. If you accept that God is omniscient and omnipotent, then you must accept that God knew beforehand that man would fall into sin and had the ability to prevent it (if by no other means than deciding not to create man). Thus, it must have been according to God's purpose that man was allowed to fall. This doesn't mean that He actively forced man into sin...Adam sinned of his own free will.

It is not uncommon for one to buck against these Scriptural truths. It is part of our sinful nature to oppose divine truths, and unfortunately our flesh (sin nature) is not completely cast off and destroyed when we come to faith. We still fight against our old inclinations, which is why we continue to sin even as believers. If you have time, browse over to the thread in the Semper Reformanda forum started by ksen regarding why/how many of us became Calvinists.

As you work this all out, above all else be sure to go before Him in prayer and ask that he help you come to a fuller knowledge of the truth in His Word.

Soli Deo Gloria...to God be the glory!
 
Upvote 0