Question about Adultery

babyangel · Mar 23, 2005

SirKenin said:
You have no right to judge whether or not someone is a believer by their sins. Man knows the outside, but only God knows the heart. I can't know that. You can't know that. Nobody can know that but God, so really your question is impertinent and not worth spending any more time on.

Avoiding a biblical answer. Oh my goodness I guess then I can divorce him and remarry for whatever reason and no church can tell me otherwise or judge me or tell me to divorce my second husband. How can all these churches then do that and turn Christians away. That is a very important question, how did you know you wife was not a believer then, how would anyone know?? Maybe I am the unbeliver. I was the unbeliever when I got married. And I was abused terribly by someone that was a believer. If thats what a christian is allowed to do to I loose all faith in the bible.

babyangel · Mar 23, 2005

SirKenin said:
She can always leave and stay single because you can NOT show me a verse in the Bible that provides for her remarriage.

1 corinthians 27 Art thou bound unto a wife? seek not to be loosed. Art thou loosed from a wife? seek not a wife. 28 But and if thou marry, thou hast not sinned; and if a virgin marry, she hath not sinned. Divorced for what ever reason is a divorce.!!

SirKenin · Mar 23, 2005

Grishnak said:
Sure I can.
She is divorced, unmarried, loosed from a spouse.

She is not divorced for the two reasons given in the Bible. In those two verses you quoted, if Paul was to imply that the divorced and widows could get remarried contrary to Jesus' and his own teachings, that would make him a heretic and a hypocrite.

So no you can't.

Whats funny, and Ive let this one slide, is you say Paul said ''let the unbeliever leave" and then pretend he said its ok to remarry after when actaully, he gives no such advice

So how do you conclude that one can remarry if the unbeliever leaves?

The verse you just quoted obviously (1 Corinthians 7:8-9 KJV)

babyangel · Mar 23, 2005

Grishnak said:
Holy Cow-Monkeys, I think Im gonna swallow my tongue here.

So Paul went a step FURTHER than Jesus had?
WOW !!

Paul shows that what? "You can't hold a non-believer accountable to Jesus' teachings"

YAY

We're finally getting somewhere

So Jesus only permitted ONE item for divorce, then Paul, realizing that, hey, you cant MAKE an unbelieving spouse behave themselves, so why should the BELIEVER have to pay for the UNbelievers behavior the rest of their lives

I need to add my 2 cents when did Jesus ever hold someone accountable for someone elses sins?

babyangel · Mar 23, 2005

SirKenin said:
To the advice itself, which is that if an unbelieving husband or wife were pleased to dwell with a Christian relative, the other should not separate. The husband should not put away an unbelieving wife, nor the wife leave an unbelieving husband, v. 12, 13. The Christian calling did not dissolve the marriage covenant, but bind it the faster, by bringing it back to the original institution, limiting it to two persons, and binding them together for life. The believer is not by faith in Christ loosed from matrimonial bonds to an unbeliever, but is at once bound and made apt to be a better relative. But, though a believing wife or husband should not separate from an unbelieving mate, yet if the unbelieving relative desert the believer, and no means can reconcile to a cohabitation, in such a case a brother or sister is not in bondage (v. 15), not tied up to the unreasonable humour, and bound servilely to follow or cleave to the malicious deserter, or not bound to live unmarried after all proper means for reconciliation have been tried, at least of the deserter contract another marriage or be guilty of adultery, which was a very easy supposition, because a very common instance among the heathen inhabitants of Corinth. In such a case the deserted person must be free to marry again, and it is granted on all hands. And some think that such a malicious desertion is as much a dissolution of the marriage-covenant as death itself. For how is it possible that the two shall be one flesh when the one is maliciously bent to part from or put away the other? Indeed, the deserter seems still bound by the matrimonial contract; and therefore the apostle says (v. 11), If the woman depart from her husband upon the account of his infidelity, let her remain unmarried. But the deserted party seems to be left more at liberty (I mean supposing all the proper means have been used to reclaim the deserter, and other circumstances make it necessary) to marry another person. It does not seem reasonable that they should be still bound, when it is rendered impossible to perform conjugal duties or enjoy conjugal comforts, through the mere fault of their mate: in such a case marriage would be a state of servitude indeed. But, whatever liberty be indulged Christians in such a case as this, they are not allowed, for the mere infidelity of a husband or wife, to separate; but, if the unbeliever be willing, they should continue in the relation, and cohabit as those who are thus related. This is the apostles general direction.

This makes me want to toss the bible and stop studying because it is easier for me to remain an unbeliever. Then I can leave. Because my husband is such a good christian. Hmm thats the route. Then maybe maybe one day I can come to my senses and repent and maybe pick up the bible again and possibly become a christian and be a believer now. See what those kind of "restrictions" does to a person. That is not what the bible is for. Bottom line for my dollar is God knows all and sees all. Only he can be the judge and I know I have done nothing wrong. And my husband is yes worse than an unbeliver the bible says so (help me out grish I cant remember the verse) but it talks about not providing for the family etc which he doesnt. So wouldnt one that is worse than an unbeliever infact be considered an unbeliever??

Grishnak · Mar 23, 2005

SirKenin said:
He NEVER used that example to show that it was ok to break HIS commandments, so your argument is invalid.

Do you want me to start showing that Jesus Christ is the SAME forever and that He is indeed GOD and that He was there before the foundations of the world?
You seem to think that Jesus wasnt yet around when Moses penned out the Law.
The ''GOD'' who said He wanted mercy and not sacrifice, is the same God who defended David in his hunger.

Jesus also broke Deuteronomic Law, so he was not being hypocritical. The concept of mercy was directed at the Scribes and Pharisees.

Thats your arguement?
Who it was directed at is irrelevant.
A God who wanted MERCY over sacrifice as commanded by LAW, surely doesnt want some infidel animal beating one of His children.

Jesus never broke his commandments, so he was not being hypocritical.

Im sure you had some logic in there

Mercy was not a provision to use as an excuse to break Jesus' commandments at will.

WHOA....slow down cowboy.
Who said ''at will"
We're talking about a spouse whos been abused or whatever leaving for fear of life or whatever, then marrying a good, godly person later.
Not just casting aside Gods word.

If that's the case why did Jesus waste his time giving them to us to begin with? Why did he follow them to the letter?

He was able to follow them to the letter.
He also died over those letters.
A woman is not called to be beaten by a husband.
And if she cannot stay celebate over burning with passion, then it is better to marry than to burn.

Because you are expected to as well. He was setting an example that you are expected to follow.

Keep praying about that flirting problem.
Id like to see if God opens your eyes to it

You will be judged on that final day based upon your adherence. God is not going to be sitting there going "Oh, you broke this law, this law and this law on purpose, in defiance of Jesus? Hmm. Well this is your lucky day. I've decided to let that slide today". Isn't going to happen. You will be judged according to your deeds and misdeeds here on earth, abuse of the concept of mercy or not.

JUst as David will be judged for eating that showbread when he had a extraordinary need.

In fact, Paul was saying nonbelievers can't be held accountable for breaking the commandments, because they don't believe in them to begin with. If you even bothered reading the first commentary that I posted (from Matthew Henry) you would realize that Paul is saying just let the rebel go, but the believer is not allowed to initiate the divorce.

Whats funny about your commentary is that I can find other commentaries that will disagree.
Henry has some decent opinion, but some of his ideas dont line up with scripure as a whole when it comes to doctrinal stances.
Sorry if thats not what you wanted to hear.

It's about time your started doing a little more reading and a little less condescending and pretending to know everything.

ditto

Time to forget about trying to work your way around the truth by abusing the concept of mercy. We are told by Paul not to test God's grace, and that is exactly what you are advocating.

You say you have a young daughter, I think.
Hopefully she wont have to learn from you what mercy is if she marries the wrong guy.

But you know, Ive seen people who have no mercy for others suddenly change when its THEIR kids lives and happiness on the line

Crazy Liz · Mar 23, 2005

SirKenin said:
You have no right to judge whether or not someone is a believer by their sins. Man knows the outside, but only God knows the heart. I can't know that. You can't know that. Nobody can know that but God, so really your question is impertinent and not worth spending any more time on.

Does this mean what Paul said in 1 Corinthians 7 is illusory, since the believing spouse cannot know whether the spouse who left is a believer or an unbeliever?

seebs · Mar 23, 2005

babyangel said:
Trust me I have told him everything under the sun. And talked and talked and talked. He said he would not go to counceling and I have the problems, I need sex counceling (as stated earlier I cant have sex with someone I can not trust or respect for obvious reasons, sex was good before) I need to just get over it.

Heh. You could go to a counselor and come back saying "they need both of us to do this".

Just like when I was depressed with postpartum depression and asked for help (ie stay home and keep me company) he was always out. His reponse was get over it or I will leave you. Also he has said if you go through bad menopause I will leave you. Were is the love and support and encouragement I need. I dont know how menoupause will hit me, but what if I need help and he just leaves me at that point or abuses me even more because I may have verbal outbursts. I cant trust this person.

Did he post here in the past? We had a guy with that attitude for a while.

I am so sorry. I can't help; I can offer a little comfort, but not much help. If this man is unwilling to work on the relationship, there's not much left to do.

I am scared if I was paralized he would rape me against my will. I do not want to live life in fear. I also wanted to say we dated 6 years before marriage and we never fought, nothing to fight about. Then when we married I had to keep silent no opinion at all.

This is very wrong. He doesn't seem to have any idea what marriage is about. He should be overjoyed to have a wife who is willing to talk to him and share her opinions.

I took it for 10 years and finally 5 years ago could not take anymore. Things were so so for 5years that is where I did my talking saying I am not happy get counceling, etc. He didnt take it seriously and kept going. Things just got worse and finally last year I asked him to leave. I thought it would be a wake up call yet he doesnt change. How long do I need to wait? Especially since he says he wants to divorce me.

I see two possibilities. One is that he's having an affair, the other is that he's being an idiot. He doesn't seem to appreciate you.

The one good chance I see is that if you walk, he may realize that he actually does like you.

But man o man.

How many kids have you got, and what ages? Do they know that something's up?

What religion, if any, is your husband? If he's religious, have you talked to a pastor or whatever about this? Not that it always helps; some churches have really dysfunctional marriage teachings.

But... I dunno. I don't know that we can help, but I can tell you that you are loved. I can tell you that you are not wrong to be unhappy, and that your husband owes you more than he is giving you. I can pray for you.

babyangel · Mar 23, 2005

Crazy Liz said:
Does this mean what Paul said in 1 Corinthians 7 is illusory, since the believing spouse cannot know whether the spouse who left is a believer or an unbeliever?

Good point.

Grishnak · Mar 23, 2005

She is not divorced for the two reasons given in the Bible. In those two verses you quoted, if Paul was to imply that the divorced and widows could get remarried contrary to Jesus' and his own teachings, that would make him a heretic and a hypocrite.
So no you can't.

ah.
You know, Im really not wanting to turn this around on you here, and it will take this thread even further off topic to do so, but Id be willing to be my next paycheck that I can find NT teachings that you will have to admit you dont follow to the letter.

Rather than point them out and derail this thread, how about you take a bit and think about ALL that Jesus said to do in HIs teachings that you do NOT follow to the LETTER, but try your best to do in the spirit of what He said. ( ''sell what you own and give to the poor" would be a good example).

As much as you play off like you follow EVERY word that proceded from the mouth of Christ, you do not.

I dont want to make an example out of you SK, but Im not stupid, I know NO MAN follows the NT writings TO THE LETTER.

We do the best we can given our lives and hope that God willl forgive our shortcomings, that He will show MERCY when life wont allow us to do EXACTLY what HIs word commands.

Grishnak · Mar 23, 2005

Crazy Liz said:
Does this mean what Paul said in 1 Corinthians 7 is illusory, since the believing spouse cannot know whether the spouse who left is a believer or an unbeliever?

OH NO

Dont do that, its making my head hurt

seebs · Mar 23, 2005

babyangel said:
See what those kind of "restrictions" does to a person. That is not what the bible is for. Bottom line for my dollar is God knows all and sees all. Only he can be the judge and I know I have done nothing wrong. And my husband is yes worse than an unbeliver the bible says so (help me out grish I cant remember the verse) but it talks about not providing for the family etc which he doesnt. So wouldnt one that is worse than an unbeliever infact be considered an unbeliever??

It doesn't make him an unbeliever, just not a good spouse.

I am very sorry people are attacking you.

At this point, I would suggest that instead of bulling through all of Paul's writings trying to get a clear answer on this circumstance, you take a break and read the Gospel according to John. Just read through it enjoying the beautiful language, and hear the words of your Savior. It will be more edifying, I promise.

seebs · Mar 23, 2005

Grishnak said:
We do the best we can given our lives and hope that God willl forgive our shortcomings, that He will show MERCY when life wont allow us to do EXACTLY what HIs word commands.

I am a fairly militant skeptic, and I am not sure I can claim to know the sun will rise tomorrow.

But I would say that, if we can know anything about the future, we can know that God will show mercy, and compassion, and love, for us when we fall short.

Thank you for an eloquent post in defense of your sister. It spoke my heart on the matter.

babyangel · Mar 23, 2005

seebs said:
Heh. You could go to a counselor and come back saying "they need both of us to do this".

Did he post here in the past? We had a guy with that attitude for a while.

I am so sorry. I can't help; I can offer a little comfort, but not much help. If this man is unwilling to work on the relationship, there's not much left to do.

This is very wrong. He doesn't seem to have any idea what marriage is about. He should be overjoyed to have a wife who is willing to talk to him and share her opinions.

I see two possibilities. One is that he's having an affair, the other is that he's being an idiot. He doesn't seem to appreciate you.

The one good chance I see is that if you walk, he may realize that he actually does like you.

But man o man.

How many kids have you got, and what ages? Do they know that something's up?

What religion, if any, is your husband? If he's religious, have you talked to a pastor or whatever about this? Not that it always helps; some churches have really dysfunctional marriage teachings.

But... I dunno. I don't know that we can help, but I can tell you that you are loved. I can tell you that you are not wrong to be unhappy, and that your husband owes you more than he is giving you. I can pray for you.

I do not want to offend anyone by posting what religion he is. I would never go to his church for help. I have my own church I have been going to. You can pm me if particulars help. Although I will say he did practise to a point. But saying you are religious and following the bible is one thing but going to church every sunday and not follow the bible does not make you a Christian. I dont believe in his relgion and never have. I married him promising to raise the kids as that religion. I had no problem with that. Although yes I was the unbeliever when we go married. It was important to me. And yes I have been stuggling with that also, but all the preachers have said to me I made that promise to the church not God fulfill the promise to God himself. Dont worry about the church. So I am going on my own biblical religous journey and he would never agree with that also. He has done everything a husband should not, but when it comes to cheating that is where he throws his 2 cents in. I am good I never cheated on you. That is all he throws in my face. But broke every other vow in my opinion. To me I could forgive cheating, and although I forgive the abuse I can not put myself in that situation. He did get some sort of counceling it was to make him strongr and cause me more grief. He now says he can get the kids doesnt matter how he has behaved. Have I mentioned at all he was arrested for possesion of drugs. Yeah I begged him to not bring it to the house and risk me and the girls (6 and 8) but he would get mad at me if I suggested it. I thank god I was not with him when he got arrested he spent 2 nights in jail and a year on house arrest. $20,000 dollars later. oops getting off topic. But he says even with his record etc he can get the kids. And all these legal things I know nothing about since I have not been seeking legal advice. Believe it or not the kids dont say much.. He was never around much when they were growing up. They will asked why he doesnt sleep here, but they dont aske about him during the week. When he does have the for a couple hours on Saturday, he ends up telling them things like I dont love him and he is not here cause I dont want him etc. I have never said anything bad about him to them I keep it positive. But he keeps making me look like the bad guy. My 8 year old comes home in tears and I have to reassure her the best I can. He just acts so childish and doesnt understand what he has done etc. Hope that gives you more insight.

heartnsoul · Mar 23, 2005

Grishnak said:
We do the best we can given our lives and hope that God willl forgive our shortcomings, that He will show MERCY when life wont allow us to do EXACTLY what HIs word commands.

Thank you Grishnak. I echo Seeb's post. Our God is a compassionate God who does show us mercy, love and forgiveness. Those who do not know God that way will be humbled by God someday. I believe the mark of a truly spiritually mature believer is someone who really knows who God is. I am grateful to have personally experienced God's love and forgiveness...and guess what? I was divorced and remarried and God didn't kick me to the curb...instead he blessed me continuously. Others on this forum have also been blessed after a divorce and remarriage. What an awesome God we have!

babyangel · Mar 23, 2005

seebs said:
It doesn't make him an unbeliever, just not a good spouse.

I am very sorry people are attacking you.

At this point, I would suggest that instead of bulling through all of Paul's writings trying to get a clear answer on this circumstance, you take a break and read the Gospel according to John. Just read through it enjoying the beautiful language, and hear the words of your Savior. It will be more edifying, I promise.

I dont feel I am being attacked. 3 Months ago I would have been devastated, but I am a new person with beliefs and a great outlook on life. I dont mean to come off as sounding depressed like I want to throw the towel in or that I am depressed. I am just venting how one would feel and actually how I did feel but I have over come depression and my goal is to find out all I can. I need to learn the good and the bad, and what everyone believes. I still feel that my husband is an unbeliever because he is worse than an unbeliever

Henaynei · Mar 23, 2005

MOD HAT ON

Shalom, I just want to thank everyone for getting the thread back on topic.......

The staff truly appreciates when folks make reports rather than trying to deal with things within the threads themselves..... 'cuz it makes things more difficult for all members

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b'Shalom
Henaynei
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MOD HAT OFF

Grishnak · Mar 23, 2005

heartnsoul said:
Thank you Grishnak. I echo Seeb's post. Our God is a compassionate God who does show us mercy, love and forgiveness. Those who do not know God that way will be humbled by God someday. I believe the mark of a truly spiritually mature believer is someone who really knows who God is. I am grateful to have personally experienced God's love and forgiveness...and guess what? I was divorced and remarried and God didn't kick me to the curb...instead he blessed me continuously. Others on this forum have also been blessed after a divorce and remarriage. What an awesome God we have!

Whats truely amazing to me is to see that Deut 24:1 was written to protect the woman from abuse or even death at the hands of her husband, and to make sure she was provided for in a manner that she could be married again having a divorce decree.

The Jewish men found a way to twist the meaning of it Deut 24:1 and end up justifying themselves for divorcing for ANY cause now, and again, the woman is the one left holding the bag.

Jesus' words in Matthew are very clearly againt the men who have been casting out their wives ''for any cause''.
I believe that the women were not permitted to file divorce exept by permission of the husband, so this has to be directed at the men, if thats the case.
He shows that the Jewish men were not going to be pemitted to just cast a woman out anymore for any cause, but ONLY if she had broken the marital covenant by playing the harlot, could the man legally put her away.

What blows my mind is that in BOTH cases the WOMAN is the one having to be defended both by Moses and then by Jesus.

Its like, no matter how many time men are told to honor their wives, many will find a way to abuse her.
And many will also find a way to excuse that abuse.

Crazy Liz · Mar 23, 2005

Grishnak said:
What blows my mind is that in BOTH cases the WOMAN is the one having to be defended both by Moses and then by Jesus.

Its like, no matter how many time men are told to honor their wives, many will find a way to abuse her.
And many will also find a way to excuse that abuse.

And then so-called Christian men twist Jesus' words to say you can divorce but you can't remarry, again keeping the woman in bondage.

Grishnak · Mar 23, 2005

Crazy Liz said:
And then so-called Christian men twist Jesus' words to say you can divorce but you can't remarry, again keeping the woman in bondage.

huh.
You know, I missed that one.

There does seem to be a pattern of abuse/neglect/terrorizing going on here

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