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Was Paul....hosed, (as you put it)?So if these folks had a change of heart later, and decided they later wanted to fall in line to faith/other, they're still hosed then, right? God will not forgive such prior actions -- (i.e.) to speak blasphemy.
You could NEVER challenge my faith...what you did, was truncate my response to fit a rant of your own...that is dishonest...and that never goes well in any dispute.Actually ma'am, I'm the one issuing honesty here. I have admitted, from the get-go, that I am no longer a follower of Jesus. And by this, I mean I do not think He exists postmortem. Maybe He existed as a preacher, when He was alive on earth, but that's where it ends (for me)... I have also admitted that I am now a casual observer. I have admitted that when I finally decided to read the Bible, (when I was still a believer), I came away confused; especially in regards to salvation. I later had no choice but to reject the assertions/claims, for various reasons I will not get into here, as they are off topic...
In all honesty, I have found that it would not matter how intelligent you are, how well versed you are, or how many times you read the same Bible from cover to cover.... I see direct conflict, when the Bible asserts 'the path' to salvation. I'm sorry you find me disingenuous. I'm sorry if you feel I'm playing a game here. I'm sorry you feel any adverse way towards me at all.
On the other hand, please understand what this forum arena is directly FOR.... It is for people, like me, to challenge your faithI'm sorry this annoys you.
And further, you keep accusing me of things. And yet, you have been doing it from the jump. You hit respond to an entire multi-subject response, and issue a one sentence answer. You do not address all content within the response, just 'snippets'. It doesn't really bother me. However, please remember, 'what is good for the goose, is good for the gander.' Whatever a gander is?
To recap.... I'm here to demonstrate, that the path to salvation is not clear. All you fine educated intelligent folks demonstrate this, again and again.
Here, there is nothing for you to 'win.' You can't. Many can successfully make a case for their path to salvation. But in doing so, they have to ignore other 'provable' paths, which oppose yours...
Why sir? You already seem to look down your nose on short responses...so, why would it be difficult for you to read a WHOLE CHAPTER?You have again misinterpreted my response.
Let me clarify for you. Responding to [anyone] to read a Chapter, and leaving it at that, can result in differing conclusions; even if you were to provide this Chapter to Christians exclusively.
Hence, you might want to just say what you want to say. I would assume we have all read our Bibles
Says who sir? The one who has read in context or the one who offers snippetsAs I told the other poster, John 5 explains John 5. Matthew 25:31-46 is it's own case.
Luke 14, in full context was explained to you now maybe 4 times...but you did not want to go back and read the full chapter.Prove that He has chosen youHow do you know? Actions speak louder than words. Telling me He chose you means little. What have you done to show your faith to God? And how do you know God deems your faith worthy? Again, He set a specific criteria. --- To give up all possessions. Maybe the fact that you have not done this, means your faith as not as strong as you might think or want it to be...?
You don't think that most/every Christian thinks they are chosen? Many of which, adhere to differing methods for salvation?
And until you can do this; (i.e.) prove He has chosen [you], please explain why Luke 14:33 does not apply to you, when it certainly applies to others?
For judgment I have come (John 9) should be sufficient....Now it sounds to me like you are trying state that 'blasphemy', in these contexts, are instead related to perpetual 'evil'; where evil represents eternal separation from God? I'm trying to seek clarity, as to [your] meaning?
Sounds to be that 'blasphemy', in this instance, is just another way of saying, "no, I'm not ever going to follow you, I don't need anything from you?"
If this is the case, we already have an entire category for this.... Trying to combine unbelief/rebellion/denial/rejection (with) 'blasphemy', seems to be a bit of a stretch...
Test question (multiple choice):
"In the interests of informed debate, members will not speak in a disrespectful way of the Christian God, the Trinity, or the Holy Scriptures (The Bible). A similar respect is expected towards the faith and sacred texts of other religions. Expressing disbelief in God is acceptable, referring to Him as a 'fairy tale' or a 'narcissistic god', or making a comment such as 'god throws a childish tantrum', is not acceptable."
A: Truck
B: Chainsaw
C: Blasphemy
I have, and the conclusion drawn, is that God provides verses, which states what is unforgivable. He offers little explanation and/or clarification. In spite of the fact He has no problem doing so, in detail, in other parts of the Bible.
For all we know, the verses mean what they say.
Just some clarification...should the person who is looking to resolve his/her confusion focus on just the snippets, or should he/she read in full, the context to where that snippet of a verse lies?The purpose of working through the text step by step is to arrive at a reasoned conclusion. Simply stating what you happen to think, without any reasoning, is not the same thing. This isn’t unique to the bible or to anything else, to arrive at an understanding a process of reading, understanding, reasoning etc is necessary. That is the purpose of asking questions of the text, as opposed to picking a word and simply saying what you think that word means, based on some random association.
I gave you the information in my response:
"Please re-look at post #620"
Your analogy fails though... If you ask for a cookie, and your mother states no, you can still ask your parent WHY? If your parent never responds with any reason, then maybe your parent is not doing their job?
Maybe then you will never 'understand'? If you claim that God is 'good', God is 'love', and God wants a relationship with His created Humans, (which I'm going to assuming that you do); then you have to ask yourself......
- Does God ever answer petitionary prayers? I would assume your answer is YES.
- Does God ever reveal His presence to humans? YES, if the Bible is true.
- Does God answer prayer requests? YES, if the Bible and the many anecdotal testimonials are true.
- Do humans pray for God's guidance and/or wisdom, and do many claim He responds? YES
You are not asking for something which may spoil your appetite before dinner, or rot your teeth, or aid to diabetes, or aid in weigh gain - (i.e. cookies). You are asking your Creator to clarify a verse He asserted. If He does not want you to know what it means, and further, does not care to entertain this answer to virtually anyone whom asks, then we have to wonder.... WHY?
What prayers DO God entertain? Again, I will tell you, God issues verse(s). These verses lead many to feel God will leave some unforgiven eternally, no-matter-what. [You] state you know what this actually means. Okay, fine. But so do I. We disagree. Seems REASONABLE for God to answer the call to settle this conflict, when asked upon??????????????????
I see you moved the goalpost now'Material' involves humans as well.
Again, a parent/child relationship can go awry, and then later be mended. A marriage can go south, and later be mended. A Christian can leave, and later come back.
I'll give you another example....
A 'ride-or-die' professed Christian decides to major in biology. He takes evolutionary biology courses, sees that these findings conflict with Genesis. Since belief cannot be controlled, this student now has no choice but to conclude that his prior believed upon story in Genesis was a 'lie'. To this student, (s)he now has no choice but to no longer trust his believed upon agent. He then gets angry. He curses this God he believes in. He 'speaks against' this believed upon God. He may even later fall away, again, because belief is not really a choice...
BUT, later, after he continues in his career, he comes across the teachings of a 'Roman Catholic'. His name is Kennith R. Miller. He reads the book 'Darwin's God'. After reading this book, he ultimately asks God for forgiveness.
Conclusion: a True-blue Christian can FALL AWAY from God. Why? Many are evangelicals. They believe the Bible is literal. And yet, many are forced to re-evaluate after higher education. And since you cannot control your beliefs, some fall away, beyond their control. Some of these folks may later return, if they should later change their course.. (i.e.) become a more 'liberal' Christian. And these folks could also have reason to fall away. Again, if the evidence presents, which forces their hand to no longer believe, where they believed prior, God may smite these individuals.
So I ask you, yet again, are you SURE a true-blue Christian can never change their mind? Because again, we have millions of YEC's. Most of whom probably are not scientists.
Just some clarification...should the person who is looking to resolve his/her confusion focus on just the snippets, or should he/she read in full, the context to where that snippet of a verse lies?
I never argued that hell is not eternal. I am arguing that hell (once thrown into the Lake of Fire) is not a separate realm from heaven, otherwise God cannot be "all in all".
I understand your point and I concur. Yes there is confusion, we will never resolve it as long as we live. We can only attempt to but even our best efforts will only allow us to see in part (1 Corinthians 13:12). This is not God playing hide-and-seek, it is His command for us to live by faith (2 Corinthians 5:7, Hebrews 11:1). You will not find evidence or perfect answers in faith, only hope and trust.
I never argued that hell is not eternal. I am arguing that hell (once thrown into the Lake of Fire) is not a separate realm from heaven, otherwise God cannot be "all in all".
I understand your point and I concur. Yes there is confusion, we will never resolve it as long as we live.
We can only attempt to but even our best efforts will only allow us to see in part (1 Corinthians 13:12). This is not God playing hide-and-seek, it is His command for us to live by faith (2 Corinthians 5:7, Hebrews 11:1). You will not find evidence or perfect answers in faith, only hope and trust.
Take any answers from me or others with a grain of salt. The Bible is designed to contain an infinite amount of answers, so that no man can arrogantly say they have all the answers. At some point, we all choose which scriptures we fully embrace, and which scriptures need re-interpreting. This is what I mean by choosing what you believe. God instructs us to have faith, which is the openness to seek and follow Him.
God holds nothing against you (2 Corinthians 5:19), but rather whoever does not believe condemns them self already (John 3:18).
God is love (1 John 4:7, 4:8, 4:16) and God is Spirit (and John 4:24). The fruits of the spirit are love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control according to Galatians 5:22-23. If you believe these things then in all conscience you are not really a nonbeliever. No doubt there are those who condemn themselves by refusing to believe love, choose joy, practice kindness, exercise hope, etc etc etc. So again I ask, why is the existence of God so rejectable for you?
Judgment is about what rewards we will receive in the next life.
This is how God tells us we can store up treasures in Heaven:
Giving to the needy (Luke 12:32-33)
Give to those who cannot repay (Luke 14:13-14)
Endure persecution (Matthew 5:11-12)
Loving your enemies (Matthew 5:43-48)
Praying (Matthew 6:5-6)
Serving God and others (Matthew 10:41-42)
My stance is that God will accomplish his eternal purpose in the end.
There are many things people choose to believe. Aliens, parallel universes, ghosts, free will, luck, karma, astrology, morality, consciousness. There is as much proof as there is none for these things. You decide what is worth believing, and then you go from there. God included!
Faith is how you choose to see the world, which affects how you live in the world and this is a continual process. When you say "I do" in a marriage you can't be certain that it will not end badly for you, but you choose to work hard, be faithful and love your partner until the very end.
I'm sorry you feel that you wasted your time for 3 decades. Are you certain that God didn't answer your prayers, or is it simply because you didn't get the response you wanted?
Was Paul....hosed, (as you put it)?
You could NEVER challenge my faith...
what you did, was truncate my response to fit a rant of your own...that is dishonest...and that never goes well in any dispute.
Thankfully, this is a different arena...I simply stopped responding to you, which is what I told you I would do...
However, I am back in this thread, reading, my intent was to figure out the discussion between you and Tom 1, and I came across these posts which you sent to me.
Now, I don´t care if you misrepresent me...but I do care, that in this arena, it becomes concrete words...and I need to make sure that I at least let those reading your opinions and ideas and imaginings of me...know exactly that is what they are...opinions, ideas and imaginings...and they do not hold truth about me....they are simply your words and they stay with you as your words, your ideas, your thoughts, your imaginings, your suggestions, your opinions...
Why sir? You already seem to look down your nose on short responses...so, why would it be difficult for you to read a WHOLE CHAPTER?
We had this discussion regarding those who know THE WORD and understand in full context compared to those who only offer snippets of THE WORD
Says who sir? The one who has read in context or the one who offers snippets
Luke 14, in full context was explained to you now maybe 4 times...but you did not want to go back and read the full chapter.
I told you sir, those who have read and understand in context will clearly understand that when one offers snippets and gives his opinion on just that snippet, he clearly makes it obvious that he has not done his work of reading in context...
Which is WHY I keep stressing to you to read the full chapter...
For judgment I have come (John 9) should be sufficient....
If you let me know how to search for #620 I will take a look. If your answer is to page through then you have to post again
Depend on if the prayer is approved by God or not.
Only to some (i.e. Moses)
See above.
He answers some directly, some in due time.
I just used another analogy, not goal post.
Your example is the same, which I answered, you simply changed from "parent who lost child" to "child who learned something new".
My answer is again, a true Christian won't curse God, no matter what. I heard multiple instances of former atheists, who when come to this country to complete higher education, encounters older Christians who might only have a high school degree, argue with them, present scientific evidences, to which of course the Christian can't answer, and their reply is usually the will pray for it. A real Christian, when presented with evidence, they will think how it is used, study it, instead of simply curse God.
Faith come in many flavors, even for scientists. When Einstien and Borh debate about quantum coupling, Einstien win the first round, but Bohr didn't just curse himself. He prepared for the second day and win over many other scientists. Even after Bohr is proven right by some scientists from Bell labs, it was not the end of the story as just recently other scientists raised doubt about the validity of the test.
So some one might thought they believe, but have not touched by Holy spirit, might fall off, but one who got touched will never do.
YEC does not even apply here. It is more important to believe in the message of God instead of one or two interpretation of how God works.
Itś already written...there is no need to speculate...or offer....yeast....Depends....
Have we established which translation of 'blasphemy' the Bible is actually speaking about, via in Matthew 12:31-32, Luke 12:10, and Mark 3:28-29?
It also depends on if God deemed Paul's prior actions, before His conversion, 'speaking against'?
Maybe God presented Himself to Paul in a vision, so he could write half the NT? But maybe He used him as a tool, but He is not allowing him into heaven.?.?
Furthermore, did you ask God or Paul? I really could not say, since I do not have the ability to channel dead people, or God. Do you?
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