Purveyor of Confusion

cvanwey · May 15, 2020

SPF said:
I find it funny how you disregard context as not meaningful when context determines how we interpret everything in life.

I was pulled over once while rushing my wife to the hospital. When I explained the context of why I was speeding to the officer, he did not give me a ticket, but instead gave me an escort. Context matters.

Context is key in properly interpreting and understanding many things, it's really common sense that this is true.

Heck, just google "importance of context" and you'll find no shortage of pages explaining why it is important. The very fact that I even have to say out loud that context is important makes me wonder how serious you actually are about engaging in conversation.

Great, let's see where this goes...

As a preface, here is where I stand on Matthew 12:32:

All passages regarding blasphemy, i.e. Matthew 12:31-32, Mark 3:29-29, and Luke 12:10 are cryptic. Period.

1) To 'speak against', 'blaspheme', or 'speak a word against' are not clarified.

2) The verses do not speak about the point of when you have gone too far, and are damned eternal, no-matter-what.

3) These verses remain ambiguous/vague/undefined.

4) Many, whom read the Bible as literal, would read these, and worry obsessively about not committing such and act. Or, worry that one of their close loved ones may have already committed this act. It appears to present reckless/obscure language; with a rather large threat attached.

Again, we are speaking about God's forgiveness here. And you know what happens to the ones He does not forgive or pardon, right?

What if a 'pharisee-like' individual rejected Jesus wholeheartedly, but, a year later, had a complete change of heart? He realized the error of his ways, dropped to his knees, professed to the real almighty, confessed as a sinner, and committed to follow. According to the undefined and less-than-clarified verses provided, he's toast.

SPF said:
I don't know what dcalling said, but I would suggest that all non-Christians commit the unpardonable sin and no Christians do.

Great. Then I will give you the same answer as I gave to him. The the verses are pointless. Non-Christians are already going to hell, and Christians cannot commit this sin. The verses are like parsley on your dinner plate. Remove it, and no one will notice or complain about it.

However, I have to disagree with your assessment... For the many reasons listed above...

SPF said:
Probably because you're wrong, and they're right? That would be why your conclusion is wrong and theirs is not.

You gave no reason here. Thanks...

cvanwey · May 15, 2020

agapelove said:
There is no such thing as a "standard hermeneutic" there is only individual or denominational hermeneutics. I left the orthodox church for this very reason and that's why I'm here too. Proverbs 25:2 "It is the glory of God to conceal things, but the glory of kings is to search things out."

To those who are so quick to call their hermeuntical extrapolations the "Perfect Word of God" and then take issue with people who conclude differently, here is what the Bible says:
Isaiah 66:2 "These are the ones I look on with favor: those who are humble and contrite in spirit, and who tremble at my word."

This response seems to more-so justify my conclusion? No matter how much one may study, no matter how intelligent one may be, many will read the Bible. Some may reject it, due to apparent contradictions/other. Some may choose to follow, for various reasons. For the ones whom fall away, in earnest; seems as though God might smite them for something which may be beyond their control. See below...

agapelove said:
Faith is not about knowing everything, though religion makes it seem that way. Faith is knowing that you know nothing, and believing anyway.

I cannot control what I believe. I cannot decide to choose my belief(s). Sure, I can protect an existing belief from scrutiny. I can be in denial of something. I can choose to shelter myself from my environment.

However, if my conclusion rests upon the notion that I see severe lack in evidence, and hence, do not believe, then to instill faith anyways, would not be genuine. See above.

agapelove said:
Have you thought about how maybe God knows you so well that when He speaks to you, you don't even realize it's Him and you call it something else?

I guess? But this would have to be a pretty impotent God?

agapelove said:
The Bible is far from the only evidence that He's given us. He is the creator of the cosmos. He is love, grace, mercy, justice. Where do you think these things come from?

I don't know. And neither do you.

agapelove said:
Yes, because He wants us to seek Him. That is what faith is.. the willingness and trust to seek. He manifested Himself to us through Jesus Christ and through Him we may have eternal life. This is the Biblical definition of eternal life: "Now this is eternal life; that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent." John 17:3.

If this is hard to understand; absolute truth is hard to understand. You may see it as cruel but I see it as compassion. We do not know Him right now because we are not ready to know. We do not see because we are not ready to see.

Or maybe, there exists nothing there listening. You see how Occam's Razor works there?

agapelove said:
We are saved by grace. Everything else is secondary.

Okay, your notion of salvation is by 'grace'. Can you direct me to the verse(s) which elude to this conclusion; as opposed to another means to salvation?

cvanwey · May 15, 2020

miknik5 said:
Youĺl find the answer in John 6...

Can you elaborate a bit? I'm getting differing answers, from virtually anyone I ask. And further still, you could give this brief answer to another Christian, and they may either not agree with you, or read the verses and conclude in a differing take-away

cvanwey · May 15, 2020

miknik5 said:
Both...literal and figurative...

GOD, in HIS WISDOM, knowing our limited humanity, that we ever and always require signs and representations to understand HIS HIGHER and HIDDEN SPIRITUAL TRUTHS.

The flood was symbolic of baptism in which only 8 people survived...8, sir...being symbolic of a new, 8th day creation, having passed through the LORDŚ 7th day SABBATH REST....

No one could have known that the BIBLE was a well fitted puzzle and picture pointing to the fullness which would come...even the prophets spoke in shadows not fully understanding all that they prophecied pointed to CHRIST.

Sounds as though you are going 'literal' here then? In the sense that that there existed a physical flood event? That there was a flood, and only 8 survived? I don't want to place words into your mouth. I will let you elaborate prior to proceeding.

And again, I cannot stress this enough... The author had one intent, when writing these verses. Meaning, the flood did actually happen, or it did not physically happen.

cvanwey · May 15, 2020

miknik5 said:
The WORD of GOD also says store up treasure in Heaven...for where your heart is, there also will your treasure be.

It is good that HE alone knows the hearts of HIS CHILDREN and whether their hearts are towards temporal treasures and trinkets rather than what is TRULY TREASURE...

This response lends nothing to the post unfortunately. Thus, I will ask you...

How do you know you are exempt from Luke 14:33? How do you know God does not directly test your 'faith', based upon this action, or lack-there-of?

cvanwey · May 15, 2020

miknik5 said:
We are...we were made rich the moment we heard the GOSPEL and believed...we have all that is needed and needful in CHRIST JESUS...so yes, we are rich...already...and that has nothing to do with material wealth

The passage in Luke 14:33 asks that you give up all your possessions. Hence, He is speaking about material wealth.

How do you know Jesus does not want you to give up all possessions to demonstrate you are a true follower?

cvanwey · May 15, 2020

miknik5 said:
You are looking at Luke 14:25-33 incorrectly...In fact, you concentrate on the last statement but neglect most of what 14 is about. JESUS knows who will follow HIM, sir...and the majority in this chapter DO NOT follow HIM...which is why HE says, (of HIMSELF)...who builds a tower and does not first count the cos, lest HE not be able to complete the building...or what KING does not first consult HIS army that HE be victorious lest HE not have to draw back...

We didn´t chose HIM sir...HE chose us...
HE knows who will follow HIM

Please read all of Luke 14

I did. Luke 14:25-33 speaks about what it takes to be a true follower, See below:

The Cost of Being a Disciple
25 Large crowds were traveling with Jesus, and turning to them he said: 26 “If anyone comes to me and does not hate father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters—yes, even their own life—such a person cannot be my disciple. 27 And whoever does not carry their cross and follow me cannot be my disciple.

28 “Suppose one of you wants to build a tower. Won’t you first sit down and estimate the cost to see if you have enough money to complete it? 29 For if you lay the foundation and are not able to finish it, everyone who sees it will ridicule you, 30 saying, ‘This person began to build and wasn’t able to finish.’

31 “Or suppose a king is about to go to war against another king. Won’t he first sit down and consider whether he is able with ten thousand men to oppose the one coming against him with twenty thousand? 32 If he is not able, he will send a delegation while the other is still a long way off and will ask for terms of peace. 33 In the same way, those of you who do not give up everything you have cannot be my disciples.

miknik5 said:
As to Matthew 25 31-45, those IN CHRIST JESUS have already passed from death to life and will not come under condemnation...those spoken of in Matthew 25 are those spoken of in John 5 as well as in Revelation 20

Jesus explains that the save/unsaved are separated by how much they helped others. This is in conflict to salvation by other means.

miknik5 said:
You see, there are those who hear HIS VOICE now, sir...these are those who have passed from death to LIFE...but, a time WILL come when all will hear the VOICE of the SON of GOD...and all will rise to be judged...those who have done good to eternal life, and those who have done evil, to condemnation.

So, salvation is achieved by works, faith/works, other?

miknik5 · May 15, 2020

cvanwey said:
Can you elaborate a bit? I'm getting differing answers, from virtually anyone I ask. And further still, you could give this brief answer to another Christian, and they may either not agree with you, or read the verses and conclude in a differing take-away

It is clearly there for you sir...please read John 6 and listen to what the WILL and the WORK of GOD is...

miknik5 · May 15, 2020

John 6

The WORK of GOD

Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.

28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?

29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

The WILL of GOD

All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.

39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

cvanwey · May 15, 2020

miknik5 said:
Faith in JESUS CHRIST alone is salvation sir...and the TRUTH that even today there are those who HEAR HIS VOICE, means that not only is Romans 10 is sufficient for those to whom HE has revealed HIMSELF to...
9That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

10For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

11For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

By the way, the heart is not hidden from GOD...

This conflicts with what you stated in post #472?:

"those who have done good to eternal life, and those who have done evil, to condemnation."

miknik5 · May 15, 2020

cvanwey said:
This response lends nothing to the post unfortunately. Thus, I will ask you...

How do you know you are exempt from Luke 14:33? How do you know God does not directly test your 'faith', based upon this action, or lack-there-of?

Because all of Luke 14 is talking to those who were on the fence. Just as I told you. Please review ALL of Luke 14 for proper understanding...
HE IS building...and what HE is building with are those who will follow HIM...and KNOW the difference between trinkets and TRUE TREASURE...

It´s a HEART matter, sir...

miknik5 · May 15, 2020

cvanwey said:
This conflicts with what you stated in post #472?:

"those who have done good to eternal life, and those who have done evil, to condemnation."

No it doesn´t sir...You just are either NOT listening or glancing over what I wrote.

I referred you to John 5 sir...and the TRUTH that those who have heard HIS VOICE NOW will NOT come under condemnation...they have already passed from death to life...

But, a TIME WILL COME WHEN ALL, ALL, ALL sir...those who did hear while they were alive yet did not believe the message, will, in the last day, HEAR HIS VOICE< and rise to be judged...these are they who had NO part in the FIRST RESURRECTION...that is, they did not believe when they were alive, and therefore did NOT pass from death to life...

BUT they will hear HIS VOICE, just as John 5 says, and will rise to be judged...

miknik5 · May 15, 2020

cvanwey said:
Sounds as though you are going 'literal' here then? In the sense that that there existed a physical flood event? That there was a flood, and only 8 survived? I don't want to place words into your mouth. I will let you elaborate prior to proceeding.

And again, I cannot stress this enough... The author had one intent, when writing these verses. Meaning, the flood did actually happen, or it did not physically happen.

No. I said both...I clearly said that GOD, knowing our limited humanity, provided signs and symbols of HIS HIDDEN SPIRITUAL TRUTHS.

The literal flood is also symbolic of deep spiritual truths which are hidden from some...

miknik5 · May 15, 2020

cvanwey said:
Sounds as though you are going 'literal' here then? In the sense that that there existed a physical flood event? That there was a flood, and only 8 survived? I don't want to place words into your mouth. I will let you elaborate prior to proceeding.

And again, I cannot stress this enough... The author had one intent, when writing these verses. Meaning, the flood did actually happen, or it did not physically happen.

The author did NOT fully understand what he was prophecying sir...

But...he does now...and every word of GOD in signs and symbols and shadows points to ALL THE SPIRITUAL TRUTHS hidden IN CHRIST>

cvanwey · May 15, 2020

miknik5 said:
All these outward denominations are simply an outward profession before the eyes of men of who we say we belong to and how we worship in community with other such believers...but GOD doesn´t look outwardly HE looks inwardly, upon the heart, and HE isn´t fooled...HE lsees that true inward confession/profession of who we say we belong to, that can NOT be hidden from HIM...

And mixed in among EVERY outward denominational church are those who worship in SPIRIT and in TRUTH...and those who do not know who and what they worship.

What if one's heart tells them they truly see the Bible as a fiction, where it 'counts' anyways (i.e.) anything supernatural in claim?

Again, this is an earnest interpretation of many. It would seem God would reject this human's inward heart, in this instance. So it would appear that the 'heart' is not enough. It would depend on what that person's heart has concluded.

Thus, I ask you again, who's teaching the right stuff, and who is delivering false teaching, which might lead an earnest human astray from the real God?

miknik5 · May 15, 2020

Do not worry...you will NEVER place words into my mouth...

I will certainly point it out when and if you do

miknik5 · May 15, 2020

cvanwey said:
This response lends nothing to the post unfortunately. Thus, I will ask you...

How do you know you are exempt from Luke 14:33? How do you know God does not directly test your 'faith', based upon this action, or lack-there-of?

And GOD does, refine our faith, sir...all for one purpose...to prove genuine so as to result in HIS GLORY alone...

If you read the letters of Peter, you would understand

miknik5 · May 15, 2020

cvanwey said:
The passage in Luke 14:33 asks that you give up all your possessions. Hence, He is speaking about material wealth.

How do you know Jesus does not want you to give up all possessions to demonstrate you are a true follower?

Again Luke 14 is directed at those who can´t get off the fence.

cvanwey · May 15, 2020

miknik5 said:
Don´t worry about it...as Paul said, no one can lay any other foundation than the one that was laid.
This alone is sufficient to ALL CHRISTIANS...

I doubt it. I was a Christian for 30+ years. I fell away, do to some of my reasons you responded to...

So yes, I feel it does warrant some 'worry'

On a side note, why should I care what Paul says?

miknik5 · May 15, 2020

cvanwey said:
I did. Luke 14:25-33 speaks about what it takes to be a true follower, See below:

The Cost of Being a Disciple
25 Large crowds were traveling with Jesus, and turning to them he said: 26 “If anyone comes to me and does not hate father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters—yes, even their own life—such a person cannot be my disciple. 27 And whoever does not carry their cross and follow me cannot be my disciple.

28 “Suppose one of you wants to build a tower. Won’t you first sit down and estimate the cost to see if you have enough money to complete it? 29 For if you lay the foundation and are not able to finish it, everyone who sees it will ridicule you, 30 saying, ‘This person began to build and wasn’t able to finish.’

31 “Or suppose a king is about to go to war against another king. Won’t he first sit down and consider whether he is able with ten thousand men to oppose the one coming against him with twenty thousand? 32 If he is not able, he will send a delegation while the other is still a long way off and will ask for terms of peace. 33 In the same way, those of you who do not give up everything you have cannot be my disciples.

Jesus explains that the save/unsaved are separated by how much they helped others. This is in conflict to salvation by other means.

So, salvation is achieved by works, faith/works, other?

Salvation is achieved by FAITH in CHRIST JESUS...and HE who is the Author of our faith, is also the finisher of our faith...

Believe me, HE will give us the work that we should do...and will provide the tools for those works as well...Just as ephesians 2 says

Purveyor of Confusion

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"Let not your heart be troubled"

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