Purpose Driven Life (problems, sickness, pain...)

catlover · Dec 10, 2005

9-iron said:
Actually from the little I read, it just seemed to put walls up between the believer and the Lord. I almost got the sense of some old 'sherperding' theology in there. The unhealthy 'sherperding', not following Jesus as the true sherperd.

The issue is the author approach to our position in Christ! Basically, I don't agree with him.

Disagreeing with him is one thing, but to state the author is unbiblical and being lead by evil is another.

For myself the book was not what I needed at the time. But I think Rick Warren makes a good point. Suffering can bring about good, God can make suffering work towards a good, such as Joseph with his brothers, such as Moses alone for as long as He was, such as Paul's suffering in chains.

So, yes, suffering can work toward's God's purpose. I think some people get angry at this because believers expect only blessing and good times, but to state that is the case when one becomes a Christian is a dreadful lie to tell people.

Alpine · Dec 10, 2005

newlamb said:
Well, it didn't do that for me. And it focussed on Warren's view of Jesus.

It's hard to explain. Since I was saved and from a truly depraved life, the Holy Spirit puts a tough check on me. I felt as nearly upset reading PDL as reading a romance writer's sexy potboiler. I put the book down, quit the women's prayer group which was studying the book, did not go to the Sunday p.m. services which discussed the book, and deep sixed the book. At first I thought it was because Warren was teaching baby stuff to mature Christians. Now I believe that it is more nefarious than that. Not that I think Warren was out to deceive, but that he's been used. Certainly Christians are being drawn from deep belief to fluff that Warren and Osteen preach. They are nice - but being a Christian isn't always nice - it's sometimes down and dirty - especially the repentence part which they both forget.

Anyway, PDL has really messed with my church in ways they don't even realize. But there is a core of us who did not read and study the book and we pray against the effects of the book on our church. That's all I can say.

How can a book whose theme is that "it's all about Jesus" be nefarious? I stopped reading halfway through not because it's a bads book, I just didn't feel like reading any more. But I thought the author made some excellent points. There's absolutley nothing I've seen in it that's a big problem spiritually. I don't see it as fluff at all but just solid basics. Loving Jesus, others and finding your walk with the Lord.

Are people who are claiming there is false teaching in it even have read the book? Cause it doesn't seem like they have.

janny108 · Dec 10, 2005

Try looking under Rick Warren errors on google.
Jan

psalms 91 · Dec 10, 2005

catlover said:
Disagreeing with him is one thing, but to state the author is unbiblical and being lead by evil is another.

For myself the book was not what I needed at the time. But I think Rick Warren makes a good point. Suffering can bring about good, God can make suffering work towards a good, such as Joseph with his brothers, such as Moses alone for as long as He was, such as Paul's suffering in chains.

So, yes, suffering can work toward's God's purpose. I think some people get angry at this because believers expect only blessing and good times, but to state that is the case when one becomes a Christian is a dreadful lie to tell people.

I agree with this statement because a believers walk will not be easy and may be filled with all sorts of hard ordeals and probably will but I also believe that as believers we do have authority over many things through Jesus and I think many times we go through things that God does not want us to go through and are not necessary if we would only use the power and authority that Jesus gave us. God can definitely take evil and turn it around for good.

Alpine · Dec 10, 2005

janny108 said:
Try looking under Rick Warren errors on google.
Jan

Tell me where you think he is in error.

I could also search for calvinist errors, assembly of God errors, Moses errors or peacock errors and I bet I'd get all kinds of interesting results too.

habeas · Dec 10, 2005

catlover said:
Disagreeing with him is one thing, but to state the author is unbiblical and being lead by evil is another.

For myself the book was not what I needed at the time. But I think Rick Warren makes a good point. Suffering can bring about good, God can make suffering work towards a good, such as Joseph with his brothers, such as Moses alone for as long as He was, such as Paul's suffering in chains.

So, yes, suffering can work toward's God's purpose. I think some people get angry at this because believers expect only blessing and good times, but to state that is the case when one becomes a Christian is a dreadful lie to tell people.

And to add to that:
"My brethren, count it all joy when you fall into various trials, knowing that the testing of your faith produces patience." James 1:2-3.

Hallelujah! I'm just overcome with joy that I would never know had I not suffered. The deeper the valley, the higher the mountain. Yes, count it all joy!

9-iron · Dec 10, 2005

greeing with him is one thing, but to state the author is unbiblical and being lead by evil is another.

Click to expand...

Yeah, I'm not saying he is lead by evil, I think he is sincere. However, I don't agree with his teachings in general.

habeas · Dec 10, 2005

I should clarify that I do not endorse this book, but I don't disagree with the quote per se.

Now, I just read through the posts. From them I guess we are not talking about the entire quote anymore but only the sickness and disease part? Persecution for Christ often entails physical pain, physical affliction, loss of freedom and death in addition to the loss of all material possessions.

And, if you are saying that God can never permit physical suffering brought about by sickness and disease to the faithful, how do you define a disease, the way the CDC defines it?

BarbB · Dec 10, 2005

Actually, the sickness and disease part of Warren's book is the only part I agree with, but that puts me in conflict with others in this thread and I don't want to argue that anymore.

It's my opinion that in the end Warren focusses our attention on ourselves, unlike what he says the purpose of the book is. The small group system nearly ended our Sunday night church services. It would have, but not everyone was in a small group. The book gave one of our worship singers the "freedom" to come out as a bisexual who loved 15 year old boys (he was arrested this summer). My pastor has begun to believe the pop Christian self-help books and is currently teaching the Wednesday p.m. class out of Joel Osteen's book - what's the matter with the Bible. It was so bad the other night that I actually walked out.

Then, thank God, he got back on track last Sunday and preached out of the Bible. Thank you Jesus.

When we get to the point where we take a PDL book or Osteen's book as seriously as the Bible, we've done something very very wrong. Therefore, I consider his book deceptive - it seems deep but isn't. Pseudo deepness?

victoryword · Dec 10, 2005

I don't like the book, however, I do NOT believe that Warren is teaching New Age, Psychobabble, or any other ridiculous stuff that is put out on the internet by those people who criticize anything and everything anyway. I have my personal reservations with the book and Justin brings out one of them. But I do believe that Warren was sincere in writing the book and truly sought to help the body of Christ. I believe Warren is a good Christian man, but I am personally opposed to his beliefs. Nevertheless, most of the internet sites I have checked out that criticize his book are full of a lot of baloney.

BarbB · Dec 10, 2005

victoryword said:
I don't like the book, however, I do NOT believe that Warren is teaching New Age, Psychobabble, or any other ridiculous stuff that is put out on the internet by those people who criticize anything and everything anyway. I have my personal reservations with the book and Justin brings out one of them. But I do believe that Warren was sincere in writing the book and truly sought to help the body of Christ. I believe Warren is a good Christian man, but I am personally opposed to his beliefs. Nevertheless, most of the internet sites I have checked out that criticize his book are full of a lot of baloney.

I agree. I don't think that Warren knows he is deceiving. That's the danger.

justinstout · Dec 10, 2005

victoryword said:
I don't like the book, however, I do NOT believe that Warren is teaching New Age, Psychobabble, or any other ridiculous stuff that is put out on the internet by those people who criticize anything and everything anyway. I have my personal reservations with the book and Justin brings out one of them. But I do believe that Warren was sincere in writing the book and truly sought to help the body of Christ. I believe Warren is a good Christian man, but I am personally opposed to his beliefs. Nevertheless, most of the internet sites I have checked out that criticize his book are full of a lot of baloney.

I agree with victoryword. Much of what the heresy hunters all over the internet disagree with about the PDL book are probably things that I have no problem with. It's the things that most Christians agree with that anger me the most. For example, the quote that I mentioned in the OP. Where does Warren get New Testament scriptures to back up that type of prayer? Jesus Christ healed all who were oppressed. There's not one place where Jesus told someone that God was using their disease to work some redemptive virtue in their life. That's simply not in the Bible. Jesus never made that claim and neither did any of the apostles.. yet why do so many Christians believe that sickness is sent into our lives to make us stronger? How? If there's so many "great results" after suffering from disease, then I guess Jesus must have been reversing the works of His Father.

I am not battling incurable diseases and I'm more in love with my heavenly Father than I've ever been. I am not struggling with sickness, yet my relationship with God is deeper and more intimate than it ever was when I was always sick, poor, and thinking about myself all the time.

Anytime the apostles mentioned suffering, they were referring to persecution for Christ's sake. They were not referring from sickness and disease, as many seem to think. True Biblical suffering comes as a result of preaching the Gospel and living godly in Christ. Preaching the Gospel and living godly doesn't produce sickness and disease in a believer's life. That makes no sense. The fall of man, unhealthy eating habits, or a sinful lifestyle are what brings on sickness and disease. (*note* Paul's thorn was a messenger of satan sent to stir up persecution. It was not a disease).

victoryword · Dec 10, 2005

justinstout said:
I agree with victoryword. Much of what the heresy hunters all over the internet disagree with about the PDL book are probably things that I have no problem with. It's the things that most Christians agree with that anger me the most. For example, the quote that I mentioned in the OP. Where does Warren get New Testament scriptures to back up that type of prayer? Jesus Christ healed all who were oppressed. There's not one place where Jesus told someone that God was using their disease to work some redemptive virtue in their life. That's simply not in the Bible. Jesus never made that claim and neither did any of the apostles.. yet why do so many Christians believe that sickness is sent into our lives to make us stronger? How? If there's so many "great results" after suffering from disease, then I guess Jesus must have been undoing the works of His Father.

I am not battling incurable diseases and I'm more in love with my heavenly Father than I've ever been. I am not struggling with sickness, yet my relationship with God is more passionate than it ever was when I was always sick and poor and thinking about myself all the time.

Anytime the apostles mentioned suffering, they were referring to persecution for Christ's sake. They were not referring from sickness and disease, as many seem to think. True Biblical suffering comes as a result of preaching the Gospel and living godly in Christ. Preaching the Gospel and living godly doesn't produce sickness and disease in a believer's life. That makes no sense. The fall of man, unhealthy eating habits, or a sinful lifestyle are what brings on sickness and disease. (*note* Paul's thorn was a messenger of satan sent to stir up persecution. It was not a disease).

Good post Justin

pdudgeon · Dec 10, 2005

True Biblical suffering comes as a result of preaching the Gospel and living godly in Christ. Preaching the Gospel and living godly doesn't produce sickness and disease in a believer's life. That makes no sense. The fall of man, unhealthy eating habits, or a sinful lifestyle are what brings on sickness and disease. (*note* Paul's thorn was a messenger of satan sent to stir up persecution. It was not a disease).

"true biblical suffering"??
nope i'll disagree with you here. i know too many good Christians who are disabled now as well as Christians who were born that way to say otherwise. and no their disabilities were not as a result of unhealthy eating habits or a sinful lifestyle. if you are well and healthy and not disabled then good for you, but please don't malign those who are not.

justinstout · Dec 10, 2005

pdudgeon said:
"true biblical suffering"??
nope i'll disagree with you here. i know too many good Christians who are disabled now as well as Christians who were born that way to say otherwise. and no their disabilities were not as a result of unhealthy eating habits or a sinful lifestyle. if you are well and healthy and not disabled then good for you, but please don't malign those who are not.

Yes, true Biblical suffering. Suffering that brings glory to God. Suffering that we are promised as believers. Suffering for Christ's sake. None of these include sickness or disease. The kingdom of God receives nothing through sickness and disease.

If you are going to comment on what I've stated, please read the whole thing.

I clearly stated:

"The fall of man, unhealthy eating habits, or a sinful lifestyle are what brings on sickness and disease."

I know a lot of Christians who are living a sinful lifestyle, so should I assume that it must be God's will for them to be in sin? Absolutely not. And you shouldn't assume that someone's "condition" is God's will just because a lot of people are experiencing it.

I'm not "maligning" anyone here. I'm simply speaking what God's Word says concerning sickness and disease. God called sickness and disease a curse, not a "blessing in disguise". And it's a curse that Jesus bore, to be more specific. God could not legally require us to endure something that Jesus bore for us.
Anyone who denies this is speaking against God's Word, not me.

Grace and peace to you,
Justin

akasmom · Dec 11, 2005

JOHN 9: 1 And Jesus passing, saw a man blind from the birth. 2 And his disciples asked him, Master, who sinned, this man, or his elders [And his disciples asked him, Rabbi, that is, Master, who sinned, this man, or his father and mother], that he should be born blind? 3 Jesus answered, Neither this man sinned, neither his elders [neither his father and mother]; but that the works of God be showed in him. 4 It behooveth me to work the works of him that sent me, as long as the day is [the while the day is]; the night shall come, when no man may work.

Then Jesus healed the man. He healed EVERYONE that came to Him, but not everyone he was sent to - remember when He went home? Many of them didn't receive healing from Him because of a lack of faith. I am not suggesting that those of us who are believing for healing are lacking faith. I don't know why. Maybe there is some greater glory that will happen down the road - this passage at least indicates this possibility. Or maybe we are lacking faith or some other thing.
This is what I know: that God knows more than me; that He can and will heal me (in fact, that He already has healed me) and those for whom I have prayed; and I will love and serve Him to the best of my abilities (believing even more for an increase in the loving and serving abilities!) whether or not I see the healing happen here or in my glorified body.

Alpine · Dec 11, 2005

justinstout said:
I agree with victoryword. Much of what the heresy hunters all over the internet disagree with about the PDL book are probably things that I have no problem with. It's the things that most Christians agree with that anger me the most. For example, the quote that I mentioned in the OP. Where does Warren get New Testament scriptures to back up that type of prayer? Jesus Christ healed all who were oppressed. There's not one place where Jesus told someone that God was using their disease to work some redemptive virtue in their life. That's simply not in the Bible. Jesus never made that claim and neither did any of the apostles.. yet why do so many Christians believe that sickness is sent into our lives to make us stronger? How? If there's so many "great results" after suffering from disease, then I guess Jesus must have been reversing the works of His Father.

I am not battling incurable diseases and I'm more in love with my heavenly Father than I've ever been. I am not struggling with sickness, yet my relationship with God is deeper and more intimate than it ever was when I was always sick, poor, and thinking about myself all the time.

Anytime the apostles mentioned suffering, they were referring to persecution for Christ's sake. They were not referring from sickness and disease, as many seem to think. True Biblical suffering comes as a result of preaching the Gospel and living godly in Christ. Preaching the Gospel and living godly doesn't produce sickness and disease in a believer's life. That makes no sense. The fall of man, unhealthy eating habits, or a sinful lifestyle are what brings on sickness and disease. (*note* Paul's thorn was a messenger of satan sent to stir up persecution. It was not a disease).

It's this line of thinking that is wrong. Have you ever had a life altering disease or problem? I have a physical problem I was born with. I did not ask for it. I'm not proud of it and I do believe that Jesus does heal.

While it is certainly true that people like me (or Aunt dottie who slipped on some ice and broke her leg) suffer as a result of the fall it seems to me your treading some dangerous waters. Is it any wonder why many people wander from those types of churches that pin much of the blame for their physical issues on the believer?

To say The purpose driven life is not a valid book because of the authors belief that some have to endure struggle to glofiy God just seems wrong to me.

KleinerApfel · Dec 11, 2005

As Justin says, "the fall of man" is a major, major issue.

Not that any individual sinned and thus brought sickness upon themselves, but that the Fall brought it upon the whole of creation and we are still living with the fallout.

Sickness is not God's plan.
I agree He will still bless us during it, He will work through us while we're sick, He doesn't accuse us or curse us.
But He doesn't desire it for us - He wants us whole, and if we're not, it's only because we live within the physical and temporal constraints of the broken world.

At the end of time, all will be healed, and at that time all will give glory to God.

As for the "benefits," spiritual or otherwise, of sickness, I can never see how my depression might have been a good thing, no way.
It distorted my self-image, my image of God, my relationships. How can any of that glorify God or enable me to know Him and walk with Him and reflect His glory?

The only good thing that might come from such a thing is the empathy and support I can offer others who suffer depression, but there may be better ways to get to that, and in any case, if all of us could receive full healing there would be no need for that kind of ministry.

God bless, love Sue

undecided · Dec 11, 2005

ugh. i am a new christian (a few weeks we are talking) and i am reading this book. some of it hasn't gelled 100% with me but i thought that was just because i am new, and learning as i go!
now i don't know whether it's a good thing for me to read or not?
confused.

i am in a pentescostal church (haha i just found that out last night, i wasn't sure what it was before!)

Alpine · Dec 11, 2005

undecided said:
ugh. i am a new christian (a few weeks we are talking) and i am reading this book. some of it hasn't gelled 100% with me but i thought that was just because i am new, and learning as i go!
now i don't know whether it's a good thing for me to read or not?
confused.

i am in a pentescostal church (haha i just found that out last night, i wasn't sure what it was before!)

Read it and keep on growing. Don't let our discussions discourage you. There's a lot of good in that book and from what I could see nothing to be concerned about. The main theme of the book is that "it's all about Jesus."

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