Purpose Driven life... A good thing, heresy or merely misguided?

Timothy · Mar 21, 2006

We do not deny that on occasion it can be helpful. What we are concerned about is the serious theological and other dangers. If someone is already firmly grounded in the Word, then sure, it is fine, but without that grounding, we believe (and have seen) it could lead them far astray.

Timothy

erin74 · Mar 22, 2006

It is being run at the moment at the church we moved from. Kinda glad to miss it to be honest.

The good thing about that church is that there are many theologically astute people to bring those less so back on track - to be discerning on their behalf.

The other good thing - it has brought more people into small groups than have been there before. It has brought people from the fringe of the church to very much involved in other church members lives.

I hope they don't hold on too much to the PDL stuff though, and instead learn a lot about the bible.....

Gotta get something good from it - it's better that they are doing that than not going to anything at all... I think... only because I know the small group leaders are discerning. At the hands of less discerning people I worry.....

Timothy · Mar 22, 2006

My aunt's church is running it in a healthy way. The pastor right at the first said there were things he disagreed with, but wanted to use it to get people thinking.

We just consider the dangers with the book and with the whole movement to outweigh the few positives.

Timothy

higgs2 · Mar 22, 2006

ContraMundum said:
I love irony--

From the OP : [/FONT]

See, as far as I can tell, the whole "Purpose Driven Life" is merely "Churchianity" as it is in the modern-day, fast food-instant gratification culture. It's success is clearly based on its marketability, and Warren's claim that his book will change lives is a must-have statement for comptetition in the marketised Church.

However, gtsecc brings to my attention that everyone believes that they have something good to offer, so when Warren says his book/thesis changes lives his intentions are good and his formula worked for him and others.

But, for me, I won't have a bar of it. Mostly because I'm narrow minded and the calendars in my house are set at around 1735 AD. I can't seem to move too far out of that world. All this marketed novelty makes my stomach churn. The Purpose Driven Craze leaves me with the same feeling inside that I get when I go to a Bible shop and see every shade and nuance of study Bible marketed to targeted consumers- eg. "the Teens' Study Bible", the "Life Application Bible", the "Recovery Bible", "The Men's Recovering from Recovery Bible, with notes by Eugene Peterson", the "Give up MTV Today Bible for Youth" and of course the "Pet's Study Bible for Deailing with your troubled and mixed up Christian Owners". You get the idea.

Maybe Glen and I should start the "Purpose Driven Internet Posting Life Application Bible for Internet Addicts" or something...what do you say brother? At least we could be one of the only Bibles that quote the Fathers.

tsk tsk.

Sounds like you need to read "The Prayer of Jabez for grumpy Internet posters"!

You know I'm just kidding, right contra?

KristianJ · Mar 24, 2006

SirTimothy said:
We do not deny that on occasion it can be helpful. What we are concerned about is the serious theological and other dangers. If someone is already firmly grounded in the Word, then sure, it is fine, but without that grounding, we believe (and have seen) it could lead them far astray.

Timothy

I agree with all of what you've said , Timothy - I had the exact same concerns as I was reading the book last year, and I did a fair bit of searching for reviews of the book on the Web.

I can't remember if it's explicitly said in the book itself, but it's very much designed to be seeker-friendly, which, after listening to an audio book of John Macarthur's "Hard to Believe", I am even more concerned about. As people have said, it is part of a range of books that aren't heresy, but don't get into the core aspects of the faith that need to be known about, and one of those is sin and the need for repentance. I can imagine a new Christian or someone on the verge of coming to faith reading the book and seeing the spin that Rick Warren puts on Christianity.

When our church did it last year, our minister was certain to supplement the book with the reality of sin and Jesus' redemptive work on the cross. I'm sure that would have helped a lot of people. As for me, I prefer literature that causes me to consider my walk with God and prompts me to confess on the spot when I am convicted of my failures. I've been listening to "The Pursuit of Holiness" unabridged on audio book and have come to that stage several times.

Timothy · Mar 24, 2006

The idea of 'Seeker Sensitivity' is one of the other things we're very concerned about, which is a big thing that Rick Warren, Robert Schuller & co are very big into. We believe in what was the Vineyard model of the 90s--focus on worshipping God and seekers will be attracted to that. Don't dumb down the gospel for the sake of numbers in your church.

Timothy

karen freeinchristman · Mar 24, 2006

SirTimothy said:
Don't dumb down the gospel for the sake of numbers in your church.

That's all well and good, but honestly, most people need to hear the fact that God loves them, well before they get told that they are a sinner! Unless people respond to God's love for them, they have no reason to repent of their sins.

Timothy · Mar 24, 2006

karen freeinchristman said:
That's all well and good, but honestly, most people need to hear the fact that God loves them, well before they get told that they are a sinner! Unless people respond to God's love for them, they have no reason to repent of their sins.

We fully appreciate that, but we cannot fully appreciate God's love for them if they think it's something which can be accepted or not, it's no big deal. They really need to be aware of how much they need God, IMHO. Most major revivals in the past 2000 years have started by preaching not only the love of God, but that this love is absolutely critical for living because without it we're dead.

Timothy

karen freeinchristman · Mar 24, 2006

SirTimothy said:
We fully appreciate that, but we cannot fully appreciate God's love for them if they think it's something which can be accepted or not, it's no big deal. They really need to be aware of how much they need God, IMHO. Most major revivals in the past 2000 years have started by preaching not only the love of God, but that this love is absolutely critical for living because without it we're dead.

Timothy

I am not denying the need for confession of sin and repentance, and especially the need to know that we are forgiven. But really, our need of God is comprised of much more than that. Pointing out sin is useless unless we can see that God's way is really the best way for our lives anyway, despite our greed, our lust, our pride, etc. etc. We can't expect non-believers to want to follow God if they don't truly believe that his ways are for our own good anyway, and much better than following the self-centered path. If non-believers and seekers cannot see that God is good, that there is a great benefit from following his ways, then they won't see the point. I think we need to show people that the Christian life actually works. It works now, in this life, and not just to get us into heaven.

Most non-believers don't understand sin and confession. They often think that we feel we can do anything, as long as we make sure we confess it all in the evening before we go to bed (or once a week at church). I think if we can point people to God's love, and to the benefits of following his ways, they come to want to own up to sin and confess and repent.

Timothy · Mar 24, 2006

karen freeinchristman said:
I am not denying the need for confession of sin and repentance, and especially the need to know that we are forgiven. But really, our need of God is comprised of much more than that. Pointing out sin is useless unless we can see that God's way is really the best way for our lives anyway, despite our greed, our lust, our pride, etc. etc. We can't expect non-believers to want to follow God if they don't truly believe that his ways are for our own good anyway, and much better than following the self-centered path. If non-believers and seekers cannot see that God is good, that there is a great benefit from following his ways, then they won't see the point. I think we need to show people that the Christian life actually works. It works now, in this life, and not just to get us into heaven.

Most non-believers don't understand sin and confession. They often think that we feel we can do anything, as long as we make sure we confess it all in the evening before we go to bed (or once a week at church). I think if we can point people to God's love, and to the benefits of following his ways, they come to want to own up to sin and confess and repent.

I need to work out a good response for this--it'll take me some time. Suffice to say that I 100% agree with you, I just want to explain what I'm trying to say in more detail without just telling you to go read 'Mere Christianity' by CS Lewis.

Timothy

karen freeinchristman · Mar 24, 2006

SirTimothy said:
I need to work out a good response for this--it'll take me some time. Suffice to say that I 100% agree with you, I just want to explain what I'm trying to say in more detail without just telling you to go read 'Mere Christianity' by CS Lewis.

Looking forward to your reply! By the way, I am not in disagreement with you, either. And I've already read Mere Christianity.

Timothy · Mar 24, 2006

Okay. Good to know you've read it--that has to be the BEST all-time defense of Christianity (well, second to the Bible ) I'd recommend it over the PDL any day of the week...

We agree that the primary... well I guess you could call it tenet of Christianity is the death and resurrection of Christ? The crucifixion is an absolute expression of Love for human kind, which is expressed in three ways:

A) God taking on our sins and our failings and giving us his life.

B) It's the way we regain access to the Father,

and C) it leads to the resurrection and the hope that we too shall be raised.

Thusly, any course that makes little or no mention of this supreme act, indeed a church that makes little or no mention of the cross and it's redemptive powers is in deep problems. Because none of these exist without any of the others, the love, the access, the remission of sins and the resurrection are all inextricably entangled. Thus when we preach the gospel we need to make sure that all three of those aspects of love in balance.
The Purpose driven life misses out the first of those and focuses majorly on the second, without much focus on the third. I can't really accept a course that has no focus on this, one of the most major sections of the Christian faith.

Also, confession of sins is a joyful thing. Suddenly we're free to live the life that we always should have lived. We're freed from sin, death, and hell. The Purpose Driven Life makes no mention of that, all it talks about is having access to the Father which is, yes, important, but where is all the rest? The joy and the zest for living comes from the full knowledge of sins forgiven and submission to the Father. The Purpose Driven Life tells us we can have access to God without asking for forgiveness. I say that that is not possible.

Timothy

karen freeinchristman · Mar 24, 2006

SirTimothy said:
We agree that the primary... well I guess you could call it tenet of Christianity is the death and resurrection of Christ? The crucifixion is an absolute expression of Love for human kind, which is expressed in three ways:

A) God taking on our sins and our failings and giving us his life.

B) It's the way we regain access to the Father,

and C) it leads to the resurrection and the hope that we too shall be raised.

Thusly, any course that makes little or no mention of this supreme act, indeed a church that makes little or no mention of the cross and it's redemptive powers is in deep problems. Because none of these exist without any of the others, the love, the access, the remission of sins and the resurrection are all inextricably entangled. Thus when we preach the gospel we need to make sure that all three of those aspects of love in balance.
The Purpose driven life misses out the first of those and focuses majorly on the second, without much focus on the third. I can't really accept a course that has no focus on this, one of the most major sections of the Christian faith.

Also, confession of sins is a joyful thing. Suddenly we're free to live the life that we always should have lived. We're freed from sin, death, and hell. The Purpose Driven Life makes no mention of that, all it talks about is having access to the Father which is, yes, important, but where is all the rest? The joy and the zest for living comes from the full knowledge of sins forgiven and submission to the Father. The Purpose Driven Life tells us we can have access to God without asking for forgiveness. I say that that is not possible.

I agree with your post, Timothy, and I would answer the OP question by saying that the PDL book is misguided (and perhaps misleading). But it is not heretical either. It has a gaping hole. You are most certainly right that we cannot leave out the cross in teaching the gospel.

Timothy · Mar 24, 2006

Exactly. I never really claimed that it was heresy (I was just being deliberately provocative ) merely that the potential dangers involved in using it in a church (and accepting it's doctrines completely) outweigh what potential advantages I see from it as far as people looking at what their purpose in life might be. We need people to know what their purpose is, but a course which fails to preach the gospel as we have recieved it, and intending on using it as an evangelistic tool seems to be severely dangerous.

The movement involved behind it is even worse, to be honest. Rick Warren is almost seen as prophet and infallible and that his every word is law. That is an easy danger that is available from any 'quick-fix Christian' book, but this one particularly so with the claims it makes.

Timothy

karen freeinchristman · Mar 24, 2006

SirTimothy said:
Rick Warren is almost seen as prophet and infallible and that his every word is law. That is an easy danger that is available from any 'quick-fix Christian' book, but this one particularly so with the claims it makes.

You know, after reading PDL (and PDYM, and PDC), I almost fell into that trap of believing that Rick Warren was some sort of perfect pastor, and the Saddleback Church a perfect church, to be imitated. Thankfully, the Holy Spirit has moved me away from that sort of ideology. There is an interesting thread in the Semper Reformed congregation about Mega-churches that you might be interested in reading, by the way.

Naomi4Christ · Mar 24, 2006

SirTimothy said:
The idea of 'Seeker Sensitivity' is one of the other things we're very concerned about, which is a big thing that Rick Warren, Robert Schuller & co are very big into. We believe in what was the Vineyard model of the 90s--focus on worshipping God and seekers will be attracted to that. Don't dumb down the gospel for the sake of numbers in your church.

Timothy

But you have to meet people where they are, and tailor the message so that they can cope with it.

It is possible to overdo the Good News in the early stages of your Christian journey, as illustrated in the Parable of the Sower.

What is right for a mature Christian is unlikely to be accessible to a fledgling Christian.

junegillam · Mar 24, 2006

Naomi4Christ said:
But you have to meet people where they are, and tailor the message so that they can cope with it.

It is possible to overdo the Good News in the early stages of your Christian journey, as illustrated in the Parable of the Sower.

What is right for a mature Christian is unlikely to be accessible to a fledgling Christian.

I appreciate your mention of the Parable of the Sower and also the awareness of relationship in outreach, in relationship we need to discern the stage of the other in order to disciple them, to be a friend, to hang out with (as my nephew become minister put it) them, to walk along the path.

As a teacher in the secular world, i know each student is an individual and what reaches one will fall off another.

Maybe the PDL book, etc., needs to come with a sort of diploma at the end and an invitation to the next phase of the learning?

I have just received a CD set of CS Lewis works with Mere Christianity included and look forward to listening on my commute. Started listening to The Great Divorce--whew, what a great descriptive/mood setting writing Lewis was/is!

j.

Timothy · Mar 25, 2006

Naomi4Christ said:
But you have to meet people where they are, and tailor the message so that they can cope with it.

It is possible to overdo the Good News in the early stages of your Christian journey, as illustrated in the Parable of the Sower.

What is right for a mature Christian is unlikely to be accessible to a fledgling Christian.

Indeed, yes. You're forgetting, Naomi that I'm an MK. We do this stuff for a living (we designed and filmed the Moslem equivalent of Alpha for example.) A good course takes people where they are and brings them to a saving knowledge of Christ. With Moslems the ideal place to start is what we have in common--the idea of a Creator God. With western Atheists, the best place to start is definitely not with creation/evolution! I don't believe PDL would take someone from where they are to a saving knowledge of Christ, rather it takes them where they are and makes them think everything is hunky-dory with God, if all they do is fulfill these 5 purposes.... is it just me or is that starting to sound like works-based salvation?

Timothy

KristianJ · Mar 25, 2006

Naomi4Christ said:
But you have to meet people where they are, and tailor the message so that they can cope with it.

It is possible to overdo the Good News in the early stages of your Christian journey, as illustrated in the Parable of the Sower.

What is right for a mature Christian is unlikely to be accessible to a fledgling Christian.

And at the same time, whilst we most definitely need to meet people where they are, it's essential that we don't do what amounts to rewriting the Gospel. I don't necessarily think that there's too much in terms of the fundamentals of the Gospel that you really need to adapt for different audiences - contextually, depending on the background of those whom one's ministering to, you may need to adapt for comparative purposes, just as Timothy said above.

In the end though, part of their ability to cope with the message depends on their preparedness to actually do more than just hear what you're saying. Even the most judicious of tailoring may no be enough.

Labayu · Mar 26, 2006

From what I remember of PDL it was aimed at people who where already christians. Often people are fine with the idea that they're dirty rotten sinners and need forgiveness but they're not so good with the idea that God loves them (other than in an ethereal, theoretical way). Surely not every book written for christians needs to cover every major theological idea? Or assume that they need to get "re-saved" every time they sin (about once every .025 sec's)? It would be pretty stupid of me to start calling you dangerous because your posts in this thread haven't spelled out your belief in the trinity!

Oh and btw your continued use of "we" is starting to make your posts sound a little cultish. I'm guessing "we believe/feel/etc" means "my father believes/feels/etc"?

Purpose Driven life... A good thing, heresy or merely misguided?

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