Purgatory

Xeno.of.athens · Feb 25, 2023

The Final Purification, or Purgatory

1030 All who die in God's grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven.

1031 The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned.604 The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent. the tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire:605

As for certain lesser faults, we must believe that, before the Final Judgment, there is a purifying fire. He who is truth says that whoever utters blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will be pardoned neither in this age nor in the age to come. From this sentence we understand that certain offenses can be forgiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come.606

1032 This teaching is also based on the practice of prayer for the dead, already mentioned in Sacred Scripture: "Therefore Judas Maccabeus] made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin."607 From the beginning the Church has honored the memory of the dead and offered prayers in suffrage for them, above all the Eucharistic sacrifice, so that, thus purified, they may attain the beatific vision of God.608 The Church also commends almsgiving, indulgences, and works of penance undertaken on behalf of the dead:

Let us help and commemorate them. If Job's sons were purified by their father's sacrifice, why would we doubt that our offerings for the dead bring them some consolation? Let us not hesitate to help those who have died and to offer our prayers for them.609

604 Cf. Council of Florence (1439): DS 1304; Council of Trent (1563): DS 1820; (1547): 1580; see also Benedict XII, Benedictus Deus (1336): DS 1000.
605 Cf. 1 Cor 3:15; 1 Pet 1:7.
606 St. Gregory the Great, Dial. 4, 39: PL 77, 396; cf. Mt 12:31.
607 2 Macc 12:46.
608 Cf. Council of Lyons II (1274): DS 856.
609 St. John Chrysostom, Hom. in 1 Cor. 41, 5: PG 61, 361; cf. Job 1:5.

Purgatory is a concept in Catholic theology that refers to a state or place of purification for souls who have died in a state of grace but who are not yet fully prepared to enter heaven. In purgatory, these souls are purified of their remaining venial sins and the temporal punishment due to their forgiven mortal sins, so that they can be admitted to the fullness of heaven.

The concept of purgatory is not explicitly mentioned in the Bible, but Catholic theologians and scholars point to several passages that support the idea of a state of purification after death. These include:

1 Corinthians 3:11-15 - This passage speaks of a testing of the quality of each person's work on the foundation of Christ. If one's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, but will be saved, yet so as through fire.
Matthew 12:32 - This passage speaks of forgiveness for sins committed in this age or in the age to come.
Matthew 5:26 - This passage speaks of being reconciled with one's adversary before reaching the judge, so as not to be thrown into prison and not released until the last penny is paid.
2 Maccabees 12:46 - This passage describes prayers and offerings for the dead, suggesting that the dead can benefit from such actions.

These passages, along with other teachings and traditions of the Church, have been used to support the concept of purgatory as a necessary step for some souls on their journey to heaven.

BobRyan · Feb 26, 2023

Xeno.of.athens said:
The concept of purgatory is not explicitly mentioned in the Bible

Agreed.

And NOT ONE single scripture in your post that says that after one dies (who has already been fully forgiven by Christ - ) they are then subjected to punishment (torment pain and suffering more severe than anything that can be experienced in this life) -- to get cleaned up and then sent on their way to heaven.

And if we look at the key (salient) elements of purgatory - it does not appear that those key features are there either. For example:

1. You have the ability to suffer pain / torment while dead and while on your way to heaven.

2. Once forgiven of a given sin by Christ - you have more "to pay" for that sin) after you die and before heaven.

(Lets say for example that you promise someone you will study very hard to pass a test - but then you fail to study at all,, then you die before you take the test -- are you really going to fail the test in purgatory?? No Bible text says that such a system exists)

3. The church has a spiritual bank of excess-suffering that it can draw upon to write checks that bail someone out of the tortures of purgatory

Having admitted that it is not in the Bible - the next examples consistently show one method used to get it there -- "extreme inference".

Xeno.of.athens said:
, but Catholic theologians and scholars point to several passages that support the idea of a state of purification after death. These include:

1 Corinthians 3:11-15 - This passage speaks of a testing of the quality of each person's work on the foundation of Christ. If one's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, but will be saved, yet so as through fire.

A good example of a text that does not say that something bad happens to a person after they die.

Xeno.of.athens said:
Matthew 12:32 - This passage speaks of forgiveness for sins committed in this age or in the age to come.

1. It speaks of forgiveness not being granted for a sin committed in this life -- it says that it will not be forgiven in this life nor will it be forgiven in the age to come - it is not predicting that sins will be forgiven in the age to come.
2. Forgiveness of sin is not a torture that someone suffers nor would any person seek an indulgence to escape forgiveness.

Xeno.of.athens said:
Matthew 5:26 - This passage speaks of being reconciled with one's adversary before reaching the judge, so as not to be thrown into prison and not released until the last penny is paid.

The debt paid for sin is death Rom 6:23 - in fact it is called "the second death" in Rev 20 and is not a door way into heaven of any sort according to that chapter.

Xeno.of.athens said:
2 Maccabees 12:46 - This passage describes prayers and offerings for the dead, suggesting that the dead can benefit from such actions.

2 Macc 12:44-46 is not in the Bible - but even if we do accept the suggestion made there - it says specifically that apart from the bodily resurrection of the dead -- all they were doing was completely useless. This is the opposite of the doctrine on Purgatory. In the Purgatory doctrine benefit is realized immediately while the person is dead - before they are bodily resurrected. In fact that is the entire point. So it is odd that this example comes up.

2 Macc 12:44 ("For if he had not hoped that they that were slain should rise again, it would have seemed superfluous and vain to pray for the dead,")

There we have a clear statement that all that "prayers for the dead" discussion in 2 Macc 12 was not an effort to provide any benefit at all to them while dead - it was only in view of the resurrection that the act could benefit them - according to 2 Macc 12. But that is the very opposite of how that text is being used in the OP. In the OP it is used to claim they are helped while dead before being bodily resurrected! 2 Macc 12:44 is like saying "indulgences are of no value to those in Purgatory until they are bodily resurrected"!!

How in the world could it be of no benefit to be "released from the most severe torture a human could ever experience on Earth - and sent to heaven"!!!??? Obviously that is not what is being claimed in 2 Macc 12. Rather the author is claiming that whatever benefit accrues to the dead is not actually realized by the dead until they are resurrected - which is the opposite point being attempted in the OP for that text.

BobRyan · Feb 26, 2023

Indulgences are a problem - not only because there is no basis in the Bible for saying that some "spiritual bank of excess suffering" exists but also because - if it even were true that a human on Earth could write some sort of check to get souls out of supposed purgatory of intense suffering - then would it not be inhumane to fail to grant that immediate release to all souls in purgatory?

BobRyan · Feb 26, 2023

Purgatory is "punishment" - not relieved by Christ's forgiveness of your sins.???

Augustine (De Civ. Dei, lib. XXI, cap.xiii and xvi) declares that the punishment of purgatory is temporary and will cease, at least with the Last Judgment... Augustine in Ps. 37 n. 3, speaks of the pain which purgatorial fire causes as more severe than anything a man can suffer in this life, "gravior erit ignis quam quidquid potest homo pati in hac vita" (P. L., col. 397). Gregory the Great speaks of those who after this life "will expiate their faults by purgatorial flames," and he adds "'that the pain be more intolerable than any one can suffer in this life" (Ps. 3 poenit., n. 1). Following in the footsteps of Gregory , St. Thomas teaches (IV, dist. xxi, q. i, a.1) that besides the separation of the soul from the sight of God , there is the other punishment from fire. "Una poena damni, in quantum scilicet retardantur a divina visione; alia sensus secundum quod ab igne punientur", and St. Bonaventure not only agrees with St. Thomas but adds (IV, dist. xx, p.1, a.1, q. ii) that this punishment by fire is more severe than any punishment which comes to men in this life; "Gravior est omni temporali poena. quam modo sustinet anima carni conjuncta".

1473 The forgiveness of sin and restoration of communion with God entail the remission of the eternal punishment of sin, but temporal punishment of sin remains. While patiently bearing sufferings and trials of all kinds and, when the day comes, serenely facing death, the Christian must strive to accept this temporal punishment of sin as a grace. He should strive by works of mercy and charity, as well as by prayer and the various practices of penance, to put off completely the “old

Instead of saying Purgatory is " a fun sort of car wash that you would not want to skip on your way to heaven" it is presented as horrific torment worse than anything you could experience in this life. And is your unpaid debt left over even after Christ's blood has forgiven all and paid all for you.

The Catechism states

1031: "The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent"

=================
Council of Florence (1438-1443):
"If they have died repentant for their sins and having love of God, but have not made satisfaction for things they have done or omitted by fruits worthy of penance, then their souls, after death, are cleansed by the punishment of Purgatory...the suffrages of the faithful still living are efficacious in bringing them relief from such punishment, namely the Sacrifice of the Mass, prayers and almsgiving and other works of piety which, in accordance with
the designation of the Church, are customarily offered by the faithful for each other."
==================

1032: "This teaching is also based on the practice of prayer for the dead..."

Vatican II documents state:

"The doctrine of purgatory clearly demonstrates that even when the guilt of sin has been taken away, punishment for it or the consequences of it may remain to be expiated or cleansed. They often are. In fact, in purgatory the souls of those who died in the charity of God and truly repentant, but who had not made satisfaction with adequate penance for their sins and omissions are cleansed after death with punishments designed to purge away their debt"
(Vatican II documents, Page 75).

The Revised and Updated Edition of the Catholic Encyclopedia explains:

"The souls of those who have died in the state of grace suffer for a time a purging that prepares them to enter heaven...It is an intermediate state in which the departed souls can atone for unforgiven sins before receiving their final reward."

Catholic Encyclopedia. Refers to Purgatory as

"the condition or state for those who have not totally alienated themselves from God by their sins, but who are temporarily and partially alienated from God while their love is made perfect and they give satisfaction for their sins."

The Faith Explained

Catholic Commentary on the Baltimore Catechism post Vatican II

"It is evident that no one can know 'How Long' Purgatory LASTS for any individual soul. I have put "How Long" in quotes because, while there is DURATION beyond

the grave, there is no "time" as we know it;..However whether we measure purgatory by DURATION or by INTENSITY the fact remains that a soul in Purgatory can NOT lessen its OWN sufferings. But WE the LIVING can "help that soul" by the mercy of God and the frequency of our remembrance." pg 181

"The moment the soul leaves the body it is exposed to the full power of God's 'Pull' upon the soul. Crazed with hunger for God the soul beats ITSELF against the barriers of its OWN remaining IMPERFECTIONS UNTIL FINALLY it is purged" Pg 180

Indulgence "The remission granted by the church of the temporal punishment due to sin ALREADY forgiven" TFE - 469

===================================

How "interesting" that supposed "punishment suggested to be more extreme " than anything a man can suffer in this life" is not even mentioned in the Bible as such but rather must be inferred for us by one particular denomination's suggestion of it.

PsaltiChrysostom said:
The question is purgatory a punishment as per Lyons or a purification as per St. Mark of Ephesus.

At least we have "That" question answered - in triplicate here.

LW97Nils · Feb 26, 2023

Purgatory is not based on scripture. Not on the apocrypha either. It was introduced into the Vatican later on.

RileyG · Feb 26, 2023

LW97Nils said:
Purgatory is not based on scripture. Not on the apocrypha either. It was introduced into the Vatican later on.

Prayers for the dead are mentioned in the Bible and the early Church copiously prayed for the dead. Purgatory is just the name of the final cleansing before getting into the Beatific Vision (heaven).

Xeno.of.athens · Feb 27, 2023

LW97Nils said:
Purgatory is not based on scripture. Not on the apocrypha either. It was introduced into the Vatican later on.

A doctrine may be both in scripture by implication and also introduced by a Church council as Church teaching later on. These things are not mutually exclusive.

PsaltiChrysostom · Feb 27, 2023

The thing is that purgatory is distinctly Roman as neither the Eastern Orthodox nor the Oriental Orthodox have anything similar and both object to Purgatory being a "place". Now we do have a notion of some kind of purification after death but nothing as detailed purgatory.

BobRyan · Feb 27, 2023

RileyG said:
Prayers for the dead are mentioned in the Bible

Not in the NT
Not in the OT

There are two groups of Bible writers - Jewish ones before Christ and Christian ones after the time of Christ.
What you don't find is Christian Bible writers telling pre-cross Jewish Bible writers what to write or taking control of what was written by others.

Even so - we still have this detail --

BobRyan said:
2 Macc 12:44-46 is not in the Bible - but even if we do accept the suggestion made there - it says specifically that apart from the bodily resurrection of the dead -- all they were doing was completely useless. This is the opposite of the doctrine on Purgatory. In the Purgatory doctrine benefit is realized immediately while the person is dead - before they are bodily resurrected. In fact that is the entire point. So it is odd that this example comes up.

2 Macc 12:44 ("For if he had not hoped that they that were slain should rise again, it would have seemed superfluous and vain to pray for the dead,")

There we have a clear statement that all that "prayers for the dead" discussion in 2 Macc 12 was not an effort to provide any benefit at all to them while dead - it was only in view of the resurrection that the act could benefit them - according to 2 Macc 12. But that is the very opposite of how that text is being used in the OP. In the OP it is used to claim they are helped while dead before being bodily resurrected! 2 Macc 12:44 is like saying "indulgences are of no value to those in Purgatory until they are bodily resurrected"!!

How in the world could it be of no benefit to be "released from the most severe torture a human could ever experience on Earth - and sent to heaven"!!!??? Obviously that is not what is being claimed in 2 Macc 12. Rather the author is claiming that whatever benefit accrues to the dead is not actually realized by the dead until they are resurrected - which is the opposite point being attempted in the OP for that text.

Xeno.of.athens · Feb 27, 2023

BobRyan said:
Not in the NT
Not in the OT

There are two groups of Bible writers - Jewish ones before Christ and Christian ones after the time of Christ.
What you don't find is Christian Bible writers telling pre-cross Jewish Bible writers what to write or taking control of what was written by others.

Even so - we still have this detail --

How is the above post related to the topic?

The passage that was under question says, "It is therefore a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead, that they may be loosed from sins.", and this is what the ancient churches do and have done for many many centuries. Prayer for the dead was practised well over one thousand years before Seventh Day Adventism came into existence.

And the day following Judas came with his company, to take away the bodies of them that were slain, and to bury them with their kinsmen, in the sepulchres of their fathers. And they found under the coats of the slain, some of the donaries of the idols of Jamnia, which the law forbiddeth to the Jews: so that all plainly saw, that for this cause they were slain. Then they all blessed the just judgment of the Lord, who had discovered the things that were hidden. And so betaking themselves to prayers, they besought him, that the sin which had been committed might be forgotten. But the most valiant Judas exhorted the people to keep themselves from sin, forasmuch as they saw before their eyes what had happened, because of the sins of those that were slain. And making a gathering, he sent twelve thousand drachms of silver to Jerusalem for sacrifice to be offered for the sins of the dead, thinking well and religiously concerning the resurrection. (For if he had not hoped that they that were slain should rise again, it would have seemed superfluous and vain to pray for the dead,) And because he considered that they who had fallen asleep with godliness, had great grace laid up for them. It is therefore a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead, that they may be loosed from sins.

2 Maccabees 12:39-46 DRB

Xeno.of.athens · Feb 27, 2023

PsaltiChrysostom said:
The thing is that purgatory is distinctly Roman as neither the Eastern Orthodox nor the Oriental Orthodox have anything similar and both object to Purgatory being a "place". Now we do have a notion of some kind of purification after death but nothing as detailed purgatory.

Do Orthodox Christians believe that all who die in God's grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven?

PsaltiChrysostom · Feb 27, 2023

Xeno.of.athens said:
Do Orthodox Christians believe that all who die in God's grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven?

It's complicated... Basically after death, we are in an intermediate state of heaven or hell. It is more we object to the scholastic concept of Purgatory (especially as it might have been popularized in Dante's Divine Comedy). Purgatory was only declared a doctrine by the Western Church post-Schism, so we view it as a foreign to our way of thinking.

This is from the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese website. The Dogmatic Tradition of the Orthodox Church - Theology - Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America

A partial judgment is instituted immediately after our physical death, which places us in an intermediate condition of partial blessedness (for the righteous), or partial suffering (for the unrighteous).

Disavowing a belief in the Western "Purgatory," our Church believes that a change is possible during this intermediate state and stage. The Church, militant and triumphant, is still one, which means that we can still influence one another with our prayers and our saintly (or ungodly) life. This is the reason why we pray for our dead. Also, almsgiving on behalf of the dead may be of some help to them, without implying, of course, that those who provide the alms are in some fashion "buying" anybody's salvation.

This is from an Antiochian Orthodox website: Prayer and the Departed Saints

Actually, the Orthodox have fought strongly against this Roman Catholic doctrine. This innovation was not officially pronounced until 1274 at the Council of Lyons, and then was greatly expanded upon at the Council of Florence in 1439. It included the idea that the dead in Purgatory (understood as a separate, specific place) suffer punishments to atone for all their sins committed on earth-even sins confessed and repented of-for which they had not fully undergone punishment while they still lived on earth. Orthodoxy firmly rejects such ideas.

BobRyan · Feb 27, 2023

BobRyan said:
2 Macc 12:44-46 is not in the Bible - but even if we do accept the suggestion made there - it says specifically that apart from the bodily resurrection of the dead -- all they were doing was completely useless. This is the opposite of the doctrine on Purgatory. In the Purgatory doctrine benefit is realized immediately while the person is dead - before they are bodily resurrected. In fact that is the entire point. So it is odd that this example comes up.

2 Macc 12:44 ("For if he had not hoped that they that were slain should rise again, it would have seemed superfluous and vain to pray for the dead,")

There we have a clear statement that all that "prayers for the dead" discussion in 2 Macc 12 was not an effort to provide any benefit at all to them while dead - it was only in view of the resurrection that the act could benefit them - according to 2 Macc 12. But that is the very opposite of how that text is being used in the OP. In the OP it is used to claim they are helped while dead before being bodily resurrected! 2 Macc 12:44 is like saying "indulgences are of no value to those in Purgatory until they are bodily resurrected"!!

How in the world could it be of no benefit to be "released from the most severe torture a human could ever experience on Earth - and sent to heaven"!!!??? Obviously that is not what is being claimed in 2 Macc 12. Rather the author is claiming that whatever benefit accrues to the dead is not actually realized by the dead until they are resurrected - which is the opposite point being attempted in the OP for that text.

Xeno.of.athens said:
How is the above post related to the topic?

IN that "above post" we have a quote from 2 Macc 12:44-46 and a statement as to why we don't consider it part of the OT or NT since the Jews authored the OT and don't have it in their Hebrew Bible according to Josephus (one of their own historians in the first century), and of course none of us have it in the NT.

My reference to 2 Macc 12 emphasized vs 44 - and you say you are not sure how this relates to the topic? You are the one that brought 2 Macc 12 into this topic in your OP regarding prayers for the dead. How is this now something that can be attributed solely "to me"???

Here is that 2 Macc 12 content in the post you are responding to --

BobRyan said:
2 Macc 12:44-46 is not in the Bible - but even if we do accept the suggestion made there - it says specifically that apart from the bodily resurrection of the dead -- all they were doing was completely useless. This is the opposite of the doctrine on Purgatory. In the Purgatory doctrine benefit is realized immediately while the person is dead - before they are bodily resurrected. In fact that is the entire point. So it is odd that this example comes up.

2 Macc 12:44 ("For if he had not hoped that they that were slain should rise again, it would have seemed superfluous and vain to pray for the dead,")

There we have a clear statement that all that "prayers for the dead" discussion in 2 Macc 12 was not an effort to provide any benefit at all to them while dead - it was only in view of the resurrection that the act could benefit them - according to 2 Macc 12. But that is the very opposite of how that text is being used in the OP. In the OP it is used to claim they are helped while dead before being bodily resurrected! 2 Macc 12:44 is like saying "indulgences are of no value to those in Purgatory until they are bodily resurrected"!!

How in the world could it be of no benefit to be "released from the most severe torture a human could ever experience on Earth - and sent to heaven"!!!??? Obviously that is not what is being claimed in 2 Macc 12. Rather the author is claiming that whatever benefit accrues to the dead is not actually realized by the dead until they are resurrected - which is the opposite point being attempted in the OP for that text.

Xeno.of.athens said:
Prayer for the dead was practised well over one thousand years before Seventh Day Adventism came into existence.

Prayers to the dead and for the dead have been going on for a great many centuries even before the time of Christ - by various cultures and groups of mankind. I have never argued that such a history did not exist.

Xeno.of.athens said:
And the day following Judas came with his company, to take away the bodies of them that were slain, and to bury them with their kinsmen, in the sepulchres of their fathers. And they found under the coats of the slain, some of the donaries of the idols of Jamnia, which the law forbiddeth

Indeed - they died with what some might call "Mortal sin" on their souls -- in some denominations.

Xeno.of.athens said:
so that all plainly saw, that for this cause they were slain.

Indeed they died under condemnation and judgment as the text suggests.

Xeno.of.athens said:
. And so betaking themselves to prayers, they besought him, that the sin which had been committed might be forgotten. ... he sent twelve thousand drachms of silver to Jerusalem for sacrifice to be offered for the sins of the dead, thinking well and religiously concerning the resurrection. (For if he had not hoped that they that were slain should rise again, it would have seemed superfluous and vain to pray for the dead,) And because he considered that they who had fallen asleep with godliness, had great grace laid up for them. It is therefore a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead, that they may be loosed from sins.
2 Maccabees 12:39-46 DRB

There is the problem for purgatory - the text says those "prayers for the dead" were useless apart from the bodily resurrection whereas Purgatory and indulgences for the dead - is directly concerned with benefit for the dead BEFORE they are bodily resurrected.

As noted in my post.

As not responded to at all in your answer to my post.

Xeno.of.athens · Feb 27, 2023

PsaltiChrysostom said:
It's complicated... Basically after death, we are in an intermediate state of heaven or hell. It is more we object to the scholastic concept of Purgatory (especially as it might have been popularized in Dante's Divine Comedy). Purgatory was only declared a doctrine by the Western Church post-Schism, so we view it as a foreign to our way of thinking.

This is from the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese website. The Dogmatic Tradition of the Orthodox Church - Theology - Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America

A partial judgment is instituted immediately after our physical death, which places us in an intermediate condition of partial blessedness (for the righteous), or partial suffering (for the unrighteous).

Disavowing a belief in the Western "Purgatory," our Church believes that a change is possible during this intermediate state and stage. The Church, militant and triumphant, is still one, which means that we can still influence one another with our prayers and our saintly (or ungodly) life. This is the reason why we pray for our dead. Also, almsgiving on behalf of the dead may be of some help to them, without implying, of course, that those who provide the alms are in some fashion "buying" anybody's salvation.

This is from an Antiochian Orthodox website: Prayer and the Departed Saints

Actually, the Orthodox have fought strongly against this Roman Catholic doctrine. This innovation was not officially pronounced until 1274 at the Council of Lyons, and then was greatly expanded upon at the Council of Florence in 1439. It included the idea that the dead in Purgatory (understood as a separate, specific place) suffer punishments to atone for all their sins committed on earth-even sins confessed and repented of-for which they had not fully undergone punishment while they still lived on earth. Orthodoxy firmly rejects such ideas.

I am rather sure that Catholics do not teach what is presented here as Catholic belief, "Actually, the Orthodox have fought strongly against this Roman Catholic doctrine. This innovation was not officially pronounced until 1274 at the Council of Lyons, and then was greatly expanded upon at the Council of Florence in 1439. It included the idea that the dead in Purgatory (understood as a separate, specific place) suffer punishments to atone for all their sins committed on earth-even sins confessed and repented of-for which they had not fully undergone punishment while they still lived on earth. Orthodoxy firmly rejects such ideas."

St. Gregory the Great (540 AD to 604 AD), in his Dial. 4, 39

Dialogues book 4 chapter 39
But yet we must believe that before the day of judgment there is a Purgatory fire for certain small sins : because our Saviour saith, that he which speaketh blasphemy against the holy Ghost, that it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, nor in the world to come? Out of which sentence we learn, that some sins are forgiven in this world, and some other may be pardoned in the next : for that which is denied concern- ing one sin, is consequently understood to be granted touching some other. But yet this, as I said, we have not to believe but only concerning little and very small sins, as, for example, daily idle talk, immoderate laughter, negligence in the care of our family (which kind of offences scarce can they avoid, that know in what sort sin is to be shunned), ignorant errors in matters of no great weight : all which sins be punished after death, if men procured not pardon and remission for them in their lifetime : for when St. Paul saith, that Christ is the foundation : and by and by addeth : And if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble : the work of every one, of what kind it is, the fire shall try. If any man s work abide which he built thereupon, he shall receive reward ; if any man's work burn, he shall suffer detriment, but himself shall be saved, yet so as by fire? For although these words may be understood of the fire of tribulation, which men suffer in this world : yet if any will interpret them of the fire of Purgatory, which shall be in the next life : then must he carefully con- sider, that the Apostle said not that he may be saved by fire, that buildeth upon this foundation iron, brass, or lead, that is, the greater sort of sins, and therefore more hard, and consequently not remissible in that place : but wood, hay, stubble, that is, little and very light sins, which the fire doth easily consume. Yet we have here further to consider, that none can be there purged, no, not for the least sins that be, unless in his lifetime he deserved by virtuous works to find such favour in that place.

Xeno.of.athens · Feb 27, 2023

BobRyan said:
As not responded to at all in your answer to my post.

I do not recall typing an answer to your post. I am sure I did not.

BobRyan · Feb 27, 2023

Xeno.of.athens said:
Prayer for the dead was practised well over one thousand years before Seventh Day Adventism came into existence.

Prayers to the dead and for the dead have been going on for a great many centuries even before the time of Christ - by various cultures and groups of mankind. I have never argued that such a history did not exist.

958 Communion with the dead. "In full consciousness of this communion of the whole Mystical Body of Jesus Christ, the Church in its pilgrim members, from the very earliest days of the Christian religion, has honored with great respect the memory of the dead; and 'because it is a holy and a wholesome thought to pray for the dead that they may be loosed from their sins' she offers her suffrages for them."500 Our prayer for them is capable not only of helping them, but also of making their intercession for us effective.

Cath Digest 9/1993 pg 129

Question:

“My husband has been transferred to Japan and we have been here in Hiroshima for about two months. On a site seeing tour the Japanese guide brought me to a Buddhist shrine. There were statues of Buddha everywhere. The guide told me they represented different aspects of life and that the people offer food to the Buddhas and ask for Favors. It made me think of Our Catholic praying to the saints and wonder whether they have anything like the Ten Commandments to guide them.

"There were fountains at the gate where pious visitors washed their hands before entering the shrine grounds. Could this be the same as our holy water?”

Ans:

“Very probably the physical washing signifies some kind of spiritual cleansing, AS it does with Us! Some Muslims say prayers on rosary-like beads Just as We do, so there is no copyright enforced on prayerful customs among the great world religions. The Pagan Romans prayed, each family to its Own household gods, JUST as we do to our patron saints. In Old Testament times the gentile had local gods for their town or country, and our Christian Saints eventually supplanted them!

"The Hebrews, of Course, had the mission of wiping out such heathen worship with the worship of the one true God, and while they have always had great respect for spiritual heroes, they never set up any of their own race as substitutes for the local pagan gods!!

"They had no need to make distinctions between praying TO the saints for their intercession with god and total adoration of God as the source of everything, as we must!

BobRyan · Feb 27, 2023

Xeno.of.athens said:
I do not recall typing an answer to your post. I am sure I did not.

It appears you and I keep pointing out that non-response detail where you do not respond to the points raised (as I previously noted at the end of this post #13 )

And yet -- this post of yours -- #10

Claims to be in response to this post of mine - #9

In which we find this --

========================== the full quote of my post

RileyG said:
Prayers for the dead are mentioned in the Bible

Not in the NT
Not in the OT
There are two groups of Bible writers - Jewish ones before Christ and Christian ones after the time of Christ.
What you don't find is Christian Bible writers telling pre-cross Jewish Bible writers what to write or taking control of what was written by others.

Even so - we still have this detail --
quote begins here:

2 Macc 12:44-46 is not in the Bible - but even if we do accept the suggestion made there - it says specifically that apart from the bodily resurrection of the dead -- all they were doing was completely useless. This is the opposite of the doctrine on Purgatory. In the Purgatory doctrine benefit is realized immediately while the person is dead - before they are bodily resurrected. In fact that is the entire point. So it is odd that this example comes up.

2 Macc 12:44 ("For if he had not hoped that they that were slain should rise again, it would have seemed superfluous and vain to pray for the dead,")

There we have a clear statement that all that "prayers for the dead" discussion in 2 Macc 12 was not an effort to provide any benefit at all to them while dead - it was only in view of the resurrection that the act could benefit them - according to 2 Macc 12. But that is the very opposite of how that text is being used in the OP. In the OP it is used to claim they are helped while dead before being bodily resurrected! 2 Macc 12:44 is like saying "indulgences are of no value to those in Purgatory until they are bodily resurrected"!!

How in the world could it be of no benefit to be "released from the most severe torture a human could ever experience on Earth - and sent to heaven"!!!??? Obviously that is not what is being claimed in 2 Macc 12. Rather the author is claiming that whatever benefit accrues to the dead is not actually realized by the dead until they are resurrected - which is the opposite point being attempted in the OP for that text.

PsaltiChrysostom · Feb 27, 2023

Xeno.of.athens said:
I am rather sure that Catholics do not teach what is presented here as Catholic belief, "Actually, the Orthodox have fought strongly against this Roman Catholic doctrine. This innovation was not officially pronounced until 1274 at the Council of Lyons, and then was greatly expanded upon at the Council of Florence in 1439. It included the idea that the dead in Purgatory (understood as a separate, specific place) suffer punishments to atone for all their sins committed on earth-even sins confessed and repented of-for which they had not fully undergone punishment while they still lived on earth. Orthodoxy firmly rejects such ideas."

This is the declaration from the Council of Lyon in 1274 that the Orthodox object to:

If those who are truly repentant die in charity before they have done sufficient penance for their sins of omission and commission, their souls are cleansed after death in purgatorial or cleansing punishments . . . The suffrages of the faithful on earth can be of great help in relieving these
punishments, as, for instance, the Sacrifice of the Mass, prayers, almsgiving, and other religious deeds which, in the manner of the Church, the faithful are accustomed to offer for others of the faithful.

We object to the Catholic declaration that purgatory is a place of punishment where as we see that a soul may need refining.

The Orthodox view as stated by St. Mark of Ephesus is summarized:

According to St. Mark of Ephesus,(18) there are some souls that depart this life in faith and the love of God, but which nonetheless, have carried away certain faults. These faults may be either small sins for which the soul has not repented, or grievous faults over which the soul has indeed repented, but has failed to bring forth sufficient fruits of repentance. Such souls must be cleansed before being admitted to the lot of the righteous. He goes on to mention the various ways in which this can be accomplished.
Some may be cleansed simply by the fear associated with the departure of the body, others by remaining in some earthly place for a period of time before coming to heaven, and still others by a sojourn in Hades for a time, as if in prison.(19) In such cases, it may be the experience of fear, or the painful reproach of their conscience, or even the terror of the divine Glory and the uncertainty of their future judgment that will cleanse them of their faults.

Xeno.of.athens · Feb 27, 2023

PsaltiChrysostom said:
We object to the Catholic declaration that purgatory is a place of punishment where as we see that a soul may need refining.

Nevertheless St. Gregory the Great (540 AD to 604 AD), in his Dial. 4, 39 did write,"yet we must believe that before the day of judgment there is a Purgatory fire for certain small sins".

PsaltiChrysostom · Feb 27, 2023

Xeno.of.athens said:
Nevertheless St. Gregory the Great (540 AD to 604 AD), in his Dial. 4, 39 did write,"yet we must believe that before the day of judgment there is a Purgatory fire for certain small sins".

The question is purgatory a punishment as per Lyons or a purification as per St. Mark of Ephesus.

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